I’m reading the book また同じ夢を見ていた and it has a passage about interesting / beautiful facts and tidbits explained by one character to the main character.
いくつかしてくれた南さんのお話の中で一番素敵だなと思ったのは、英語で「薔薇の下で」というのは「秘密」という意味だというお話です。
Of the several stories Minami told me, the one that I found most fascinating was that “under the roses” means “secret” in English.
Is this even true? I’ve tried googling it and found some dictionaries mentioning it, but have any of you used this in English?
Have you learned unexpected things from Japanese books? Do you have a recommendation after reading this book? It really suits my level.
by pokevote
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Hmmmm, the Latin phrase ‘sub rosa’ is used in English to mean secrecy but I’ve never heard the phrase ‘under the roses’ used that way.
I have nothing to say other than I am also currently reading this book. It’s really good!
I had to look that up. According to [this](https://stimpson.allfunandgames.ca/informationroundup/how_did_under_the_rose_come_to_mean_in_secret.php#:~:text=Under%20the%20rose%20is%20a,derived%20indirectly%20from%20Greek%20mythology.), it stems from the Latin “*sub rosa*”, and the origin might originate from Greek mythology. For the record, I’ve literally never heard anyone say this idiom in my quarter-century of living.
Maybe it is referring to the expression “(right) under their noses” which suggests either the actor is so sneaky that their actions weren’t noticed or perhaps the observer was so oblivious they didn’t notice….
The term ‘under the rose’ does in deed mean ‘in secret’ or privately, or confidentially. ‘Sub rosa’ is Neo-Latin for ‘under the rose’ hence the expression’s origin. The rose (flower) itself, has an ancient history as a symbol of secrecy in Hellenistic and later Roman mythology because Cupid gave a rose to Harpocrates (the Hellenistic God of silence) so that he would not reveal the secrets of Venus. Also, banquet rooms throughout Roman history were decorated with rose carvings, reportedly as a reminder that discussions in the rooms should be kept in confidence. This was inherited later in Christian symbolism, where roses were carved on confessional to signify that the conversations would remain secret.
Well that’s super cool.
“In Hellenistic and later Roman mythology, roses were associated with secrecy because Cupid gave a rose to Harpocrates (the Hellenistic god of silence) so that he would not reveal the secrets of Venus.[1] Banquet rooms were decorated with rose carvings, reportedly as a reminder that discussions in the rooms should be kept in confidence”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_rosa
I never knew that
I’m not an English native speaker. But there’s a Withing Tempation song with the title “the truth beneath the rose”. Probably is not related, but I wanted to tell you just in case 😀
I translated a song from Japanese to my native language, and in this process I’ve learned a new word, both in English and in my native language, all thanks to the word 岬
Sub-Rosa was a thing explained in Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons. In the book, the term “sub Rosa” (Latin for “under the rose”) is used to signify secrecy. This is particularly relevant in the context of the Illuminati, the secret brotherhood central to the plot. The Illuminati’s activities and symbols, including the ambigram of the word “Illuminati,” are hidden and encoded, reflecting the idea of operating “under the rose” or in secrecy