I'm currently at a point where if I ask for an explanation of what something is or what a word is that I've never heard, I can usually follow along with a simple explanation and understand what this concept/thing/word is in my head. When I am explained what it is in Japanese, I don't translate it into English, I just have the idea there in my head, just like a tatami is a tatami, and ramen is ramen. I dont think of these ideas as "flooring made of layered, bundled rice straw" or "chinese noodles with various toppings in a savory broth". I really enjoy having reached this point with words that actually have an English translation. However, when it comes to grammar and idioms, have any of you gotten to the point where you deliberately try to learn these things by reading Japanese explanations? Has it helped get out of the habit of translating words to your native language in your head first?
Looking forward to hearing all your answers!
Edit: Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your responses! I just logged in to Reddit again and saw this had a minor blow up. Super glad to hear everyone’s experiences!
by the_real_gunkorn
25 comments
I think you have reached the point that a lot of us strive for as a landmark goal. Congratulations really.
There’s a lot of things I figured out that I have no association with in English (monolingual English native) and that were just learned in environment entirely through Japanese. This probably started around 300-500 hours. By around 1,000 hours though I was regularly looking up JP definitions and articles to learn JP specific things, with the only bridge being JP-EN dictionary filling in the gaps in vocabulary. By around 1,200 hours I was being able to understand words directly in context, as I knew the kanji knew the words associated with the kanji, knew the logic and also phonetic components enough where I could guess the reading and meaning of the word without ever having to look it up. I still looked it up anyway to verify I was correct. Currently it’s still a pretty big mix for me, I still heavily use JMDict (JP-EN) dictionary and also JP-JP dictionaries. A lot of nuanced based stuff I very much prefer using JP based articles as it is often just easier to understand the nuance. For things of emotional qualities though I tend to look for English-based explanations as the emotional connection to words in JP isn’t that strong (yet).
Edit: After reading some other comments I just wanted to give my opinion on monolingual vs JP dictionaries, etc. I don’t ever feel the need to move away from using JMDict (JP-EN; I quite like it) as well as other sources like DOJG and imabi, because in the end half or more of learning should come from context, and whatever resource you use that helps you make the connection in the end is the one that works. They are all just data points and just find the explanation that helps you understand the best.
I started ~~using~~ struggling with J->J definitions around the late N4/early N3 level, and most of my study materials (grammar and 読解) for N2 were Japanese-only. That said, when I was cramming vocab for N2 recognition I found doing J->E was a much better use of time. I’d still use Japanese definitions for words where EDICT’s translations felt ambiguous/unclear, though.
Not sure if it’s related to the J->J switch or just more study/input, but there are a lot more occasions where I hear a Japanese word and know what it means, but have a hard time coming up with the English equivalent. That’s frustrating in it’s own way, but also a sign of progress 🙂
I had some classes with the Marugoto textbook; I can’t remember which level, but at a certain point they introduce the grammar and vocab completely in Japanese. That was a big milestone but super helpful to overcome
Post N3 is a common spot to move to JP-JP material. The nuances in N2 and N1 are conveyed better when it’s compared within the language i.e. the differences between が早いが and や否や etc.
From around N4 level on exchange at a Japanese university. I didn’t understand what was going on in the classes for the first 6 months or so but was once things clicked they really clicked and that’s been the way since. The culture is so different so translation becomes an impediment to understanding quite quickly
I do this in part. I only take Japanese lessons in Japanese, and I watch videos about Japanese grammar in Japanese. Have done this since reaching N4 level, using material intended for my level or one level higher. I recommend the videos of 日本語の森 in particular.
Another thing I do is look up example sentences containing a particular word or phrase, to grasp the usage and nuances.
I do also read about Japanese grammar in English and look up words in English, and check how (imperfect) Google translates something. Sometimes it helps me to explicitly think about the translation of a word or phrase, while being aware that natural translations between such different languages are often far from literal translations and are more an approximation. It helps me understand the nuances.
A good example of a pattern that is usually not be translated too literally: present tense verb + ことがある
E.g. 北海道の冬は非常に寒いことがある。
Winter in Hokkaido can be very cold./
Sometimes winter in Hokkaido is very cold.
After completing Genki 1 (couldn’t be bothered to spend more money on Genki 2), reading Tae Kim, and consuming native content, my listening had gotten good enough to follow along with verbal grammar explanations from 日本語の森 videos for N3 onwards with zero English. It took roughly six years of inconsistent exposure to Japanese without necessarily doing lessons the whole time. As for vocabulary, I can check a monolingual dictionary if I must, but because free monolingual dictionary apps kinda suck (looking at you, Weblio辞書), I haven’t made the full transition even after nearly ten years, and I only really consult them when English translations in bilingual dictionaries are unclear, confusing, or inadequate.
I’m probably at 6000-7000 hours of Japanese by now and consider myself advanced at the language and still I find no issue reading up explanations in English or using a J-E dictionary. I can read J-J dictionaries and explanations (and I often do) but they aren’t the be-all-end-all of language learning as some people seem to believe.
The vast vast vast vast majority of your learning happens organically by exposure to native media. You don’t learn a language by reading up explanations about it (be those in L1 or L2). You can learn some specific details that help you understand sentences, that’s for sure, but at the end of the day you will be building your own **subconscious** mental model of the language as you experience it firsthand yourself. And as you do so, your brain will not have time to transpose it into your native language because brains are lazy and they take the path of least resistance if they can. Don’t be worried about getting “stuck” in English, it simply doesn’t happen if you read/experience enough native media.
This said, some explanations and terminology are much easier to understand in Japanese than they are in English. A lot of weird (and frankly very wrong) explanations of grammar in English you will find (like cure dolly) build upon the idea of explaining Japanese concepts using English and only leave you with half truths and a lot of wrongs. Knowing the terminology and how things are approached in Japanese grammar can be useful (use words like 単語 and 文節 instead of “word”, use 形容詞 and 形容動詞 instead of i and na adjectives, use proper conjugation names like 連体形 and 連用形 instead of attributive form or masu stem or whatever) but also it’s not **necessary** to learn the language. (If you’re interested though I recommend starting from [this site](https://www.kokugobunpou.com/))
Once you are advanced enough, you really don’t need to study grammar or even spend too much time dictionary diving. All you need to do is experience the language and build that mental model.
Also, I **absolutely hate** how most Japanese articles are written (like [this one](https://go.chatwork.com/ja/column/business_chat/business-chat-374.html), just to give a random example). They are incredibly verbose, use a lot of pointless words, split the article in multiple pointless sections, have a huge preamble, never get to the point, and then try to sum up everything with a very lacking まとめ at the end. There are some absolutely **gold** websites out there with amazing explanations (like [this amazing one](https://www.tomojuku.com/blog/verb/)) but most of them just feel like a waste of time to read through.
Found this channel today
[here’s a basic video](https://youtu.be/uwd2Cad2S9s?feature=shared)
[And here’s a more advanced one](https://youtu.be/3SkRcWkztKA?feature=shared)
uh I’m still transitioning into that space
I still do a lot of J-E dictionary
But I find myself using J-J more as well
I hope I can continue to improve
Congrats on reaching this point in your language learning journey! I remember that moment where kana became as legible to me as English, when “た” wasn’t “ta” in my head, just “た”, it’s similar to that but for like everything. When I started studying for N2, I started to switch to JP-JP dictionaries and grammar explanations in Japanese whenever I could. I wanted to start learning Japanese removed from English. The main thing you gain from doing this *learning how to think in Japanese*. It is a very, very hard habit to break to *not* translate everything in your head to your native language as soon as you process it, and I’m still not totally there really, but this is how you do it.
I’ll be honest, I don’t really have any science for this, just kind of vibes. But I figured it would that if I could think in Japanese, I could understand/learn faster and speak more naturally. This transition is difficult, *especially* at the start. There is a lot of vocabulary that is very front-loaded before you can understand a grammar explanation/definition. For example, there are many slightly different words for describing an “action” (is it a physical action? is it *done* to something? is it done *onto* you? is it a state of change? etc) and you’ll have to learn all of these, but you’ll learn the majority of these quite quickly because they’re used so often. I found 日本語の森’s videos to be very easy and extremely well done, I also like the explanations in the 新完全マスター grammar books. When I make flashcards, I only use Japanese now which helps solidify it, and I try to answer in my head with the Japanese explanation, which is very hard but I’m getting better at it.
For words, JP definitions (you can find JP dictionaries for use on yomitan) are especially useful for words with many possible translations or that explain abstract ideas (for example, the definition of 悪い is not the exact same as the definition of “bad”, they are not equivalent. 違う is not “to differ”, it is more nuanced, etc.). The hard thing is that often definitions will contain words that you also need defining! For these, I’ll read the JP definition of the target word, and if I encounter a word I don’t know, I’ll quickly check it with a JP-EN dictionary (I have yomitan set up with two Japanese dictionaries and a JP-EN below, which usually will hide the english definition unless I specifically scroll down for it). A definition with more than one word I don’t know (that I can’t easily intuit) is not going to be helpful in Anki, so I’ll put it in with a JP-EN definition.
This is also definitely not the only way to get practice “thinking in Japanese”, obviously consuming a lot of input and doing a lot of output is gonna be how you get the most nuanced understanding of all aspects of the language and are completely essential steps, I basically just think of it as extra input practice. Good luck!
From old 3級 level
Around the time I built my vocabulary up enough to read the dictionary is around the same time I started understanding Japanese in terms of Japanese.
From the start. My teachers didn’t speak English (or any other language).
The moment you realize the jp to eng dictionaries all draw from the same faulty database that even the creator admits is flawed, that’s when you start typing “word 意味”
yeah, n1 level I moved from English definitions to Japanese, it’s just better, I would not move earlier like around n3 or n2 cause u cannot read much at those levels only basic stuff.
when I attempted to translate a manga and the usual dictionary doesn’t have the words.
So I go: ．．．という意味は
I’m trying to ease into it right now, but what I’ve realized is, that often I can use a word a few times, and my brain will kind of drop the direct association with the english definition. So even now while I’m still way too low level to go entirely JP->JP I’m still kind of buildig a sort of japanese only way of thinking about things. For example, when I think of the word 男, I don’t think of the word “man” but simply of a man.
From day one. My school had a Japanese only policy from the start and were strict about it. I never learned translation.
3rd year college Japanese class in Japan was taught only in Japanese. So then.
4th year Japanese class in the states was also taught only in JP so it continued.
As soon as I could.
Try every month, give up if it’s too hard, keep going if you’re fine.
In my first year of uni my teacher spoke in english. In the second year the classes were fully in japanese and i also did a semester in Japan, so of course also in japanese. I never really thought about it too much. It was a very natural transition
At uni, we slowly started in the second part of genki 2, and at the tobira level, our teacher was very shakey with English, so it was all done in Japanese. It felt like a massive jump at the time, but I feel like it accelerated our comprehension and language abilities.
Basically day 1. My earliest *serious* attempt at learning Japanese was at a Japanese language school where speaking anything other than Japanese in class was forbidden from day 1.
Your class notes were in your native language, and intro classes had a lot of charades and pictures, but it worked. I never had any fear or hesitancy in using Japanese resources, and *all* my JLPT N1 prep was done without English.
I still use a Japanese/English dictionary when I’m on my phone because lazy, but I have no trouble with a fully Japanese dictionary if that’s what I have on hand