During covid, I started to learn Japanese with Duolingo. I did it for a few weeks then realised how much Duolingo sucked for Japanese and took the advice of what this sub said – get a textbook and anki. I began with Genki and a Core 2k deck and made little progress. My motivation lacked and I ended up quitting and restarting heaps. I tried every book, every technique (including light immersion) and nothing seemed fun and engaging.
Fast forward to now, I wanted to get back into Japanese but I knew if I went back to the textbook and flashcard style I wouldn’t last long. I downloaded a few apps and went with renshuu because it was free. In a week, I’ve made more progress with it than I would with a textbook and anki in a month.
Even though the content in these apps may not be as good, the convenience and engaging styles of the apps are so much more appealing for someone with a short attention span like me and just the fact that it actually engages with the module style lessons and fun and easy to use software you means you take so much more out of it.
If you struggle for motivation, don’t hesitate to try an app! It won’t be a good solution in the long run for someone trying to reach fluency, but it will at least get you back on the horse and going again.
38 comments
I also used (various) apps to get started with Japanese and mostly agree with this. I think apps are especially good for people who are not yet 100% sure if learning Japanese is for them and who just want to get an idea of what to expect before fully committing. I think however the key is to recognise the moment when using apps keeps you from progressing and to then switch to more serious resources. Apps that involve elements of gamification at some point make you better at using the app more than they make you better at Japanese. And often the content in apps thins out significantly after the (early) beginner level. The key is to not get stuck.
I def use them as a complement. I’ve used apps to learn kana and kanji mostly. YouTube and genki for grammar and vocabulary so far
The best method is the one you use.
I’m pretty much only using renshuu for my vocabulary, kanji, sentences and grammer, and i don’t want it any other way 🙂
Renshuu is an outlier when it comes to most apps. It’s pretty much an SRS system with pre-made decks, brief grammar help and a dictionary all packaged in one.
Also, Michael (the creator of Renshuu) is active on Discord, answers questions and does weekly voice and text chat events.
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I love apps (I use three of them : “Duolingo”, “Renshuu” and “Kanji!”), it’s so much fun than the rest but I know that I need a few more methods to learn rightfully. That’s why I took some books I sometimes read (fondamentals, grammar and kanji), I sometimes write too to maintain my habits, recite numbers, consume some japanese products (anime, songs), use other website (jisho, deepl but more gtranslate, japanesepod101) and plan to spend some money to get online discussions.
Apps are – to my mind – the best way to keep fun by working on the worst thing when you learn a language : the vocab, through achievements and micro-rewards!
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Yes it’s casual, non-academic even iconoclastic or anti-elitist, but that’s exactly what I love.
Having spend the last eight months learning Japanese with Wanikani, Bunpro, a grammar book (Japanese the manga way) and some graded readers I finally feel I know enough Japanese to be able to tackle Genki. Without a teacher and a class I don’t think it’s really doable if you’re starting from zero.
I completely agree and would add that apps are especially useful when you have to study while you are commuting or when you only have short windows of time.
As someone who spends ca. 1,5 hours in a bus on five days a week, using an app really helps me.
JA Sensei is what I use, it basically covers most aspects of learning Japanese and I would highly recommend it.
For someone who just want a basic level that’s ok. But above N5 level you just don’t have a choice, you have to use textbooks. Apps will never replace textbooks. I have the opposite story: in two months of intense learning with textbooks I managed to absolutely obliterate the level of people who has been using apps for years.
If you want to get a decent level for a two weeks trip, even Duolingo is fine.
I only use Duolingo and Kanji Study for learning Japanese, as I don’t have much time to dedicate to it and I just learn languages as a hobby and because I love it. I actually paid to unlock all kanji in the latter because of how much I love it. I know that at some point I’ll need to attend lessons or use textbooks/videos, but with those two apps I’ve gone from having zero knowledge of Japanese to being sure I can at least pass the JLPT N4 test, in 5 months (dedicating 30 minutes a day to Japanese). I think it’s a perfectly valid method of learning for a beginner!
Hotter take: Duolingo is perfectly fine if you’re pacing yourself and not chasing exp or streaks.
It helps you start to put sentences together and you can use other resources to pickup kanji and verb conjugation.
Just don’t assume the more material you get through, the more you know
Agreed! I know I won’t get fluent using just Duolingo; If, when I’m done, I still want to improve my Japanese, then I’ll start using textbooks and such.
As a little study method I like to read untranslated manga then read the translated one to see if im right, imo I find it pretty fun to do 🙂
I see it in the same vein as exercising. Sure any form of working out is better than doing nothing, but phrasing it as a “great way to learn Japanese” is still wrong imho. It’s a horrible way, just a horrible way is still better than doing nothing at all.
Apps are always my go-to method when starting to learn a language for the first time.
I’ve been using Duolingo and LingoDeer to learn Japanese, and let me tell you that these apps don’t teach you Japanese. They teach *some* vocabulary. They teach you how to pick the right answer from 4 available choices. When you’re confronted with a real situation, you realize you don’t know anything.
The best way to learn any language is to immerse yourself in what you like using said language. Currently, I read Japanese stories for kids. I watch anime and movies. I play games. I dropped the apps.
I found that I only actually learn anything from Duolingo because I actually try to learn. Examples are covering the word bank and answer it myself first or looking up a grammar point I don’t get instead of winging it. Duolingo is a great tool if you know how to use it right.
People are too hard on Duolingo. The main criticism is always “it wont get you fluent” but the same is true of Genki. It feels like people hold it to a higher standard.
It for sure has problems and doesn’t give nearly enough explanation but its a very powerful tool as long as you understand its limitations and pair it with other things, and make use of the typing feature, and read the sentence discussion threads.
People will do anything to avoid reading a book.
Since I think most people on here are ENG->JP learners, my opinion on this is that you can’t really be a casual learner of japanese coming from english as your first language. You certainly can treat it casually, but I don’t think you will ever get far with it. I think it would be easy to lose motivation and interest fast because if you aren’t putting in the proper study it will feel like you are never making progress and like you can never use what you learn practically. I think coming at it with a casual approach will inevitably lead to dropping the language because it takes a long time to see real results even when you are studying with a serious approach to it.
That being said, I don’t think any apps are bad necessarily. There are often lots of good resources out there to learn japanese, but they usually are very good a teaching a specific thing, so its important to diversify your resources you use to learn so you are learning everything you need, and not just pieces of it.
For my part, I can’t stand gamification.
It really feels like I’m wasting my time and I guess parts of those applications are to make people wasting time counting points, badges, achievements etc…
As a developer myself, I totally understand that applications need to be profitable, but I can’t help being triggered by the “dark patterns” used to create addictiveness and false sense of progression.
Those are made to make you engage with the application long term first, not the language itself. I hate that.
If you are casual you are best off finding the most comprehensible content possible. Apps are a waste for everyone. Except Anki app and YouTube.
I’m a casual learner and I don’t agree. I also have diagnosed ADHD and a poor attention span. A lot of apps are so bad it’s practically worse than doing nothing. Apps also bore me, I don’t understand how DuoLingo is supposed to be addictive, but clearly I have a minority opinion on that one. It’s engaging for like a week at most then I get sick of the inane questions. Then you feel guilty for being “lazy” and try to use the app again, then you remember why it’s garbage, and quit, then you start using it again, it’s an awful cycle of consumerism. I’d rather go through a textbook hella slow and learn actual stuff each time, than use an app every day and get frustrated by lack of substantial progress. You constantly see people post about how much they accomplished in DuoLingo but they didn’t actually learn anything.
There are exceptions, there are apps that are genuinely useful. Especially if they have an SRS system. But overall I’m just mad at myself for how much time and money I’ve spent on mediocre to bad apps.
I also think this isn’t an unpopular opinion when it seems like every time I log onto Reddit I see posts from people claiming apps a good way to learn. However, I also see people here recommend a lot of alternatives to apps that are just difficult to actually engage with like Cure Dolly so I can see how apps are preferable to that.
Any recommended app for vocab? Currently just reading articles and adding to Anki words that I don’t know, but I was wondering if there’s any other app that I could use as complementary
as someone with adhd and also finishing University (little free time) Duolingo has been keeping me from forgetting that I want to learn Japanese
Okay, so let’s break down how one would go about determining the quality of a method. In general terms. Like this: Let’s assume we’re talking about method X, and its purpose is to allow subjects to achieve goal Y, over time period Z. And, to measure the effectiveness of method X, one would use a scale of some sort (for instance, a scale from 1 to 10, on which the subjects of a study could approximate their progress towards the aforementioned goal Y, at the end of time period Z).
Sounds good? Hopefully it does. It’s super basic, intuitive stuff.
I’ve read your post carefully. From it, I can tell that your method X is “apps”, more specifically Duolingo.
That’s good. However, that’s where the good ends. You haven’t specified what your goal Y is. You haven’t specified who your subjects are, except for one: yourself. You haven’t specified where you evaluate your progress towards your (unfortunately, unspecified) goal. You also haven’t specified your time scale Z, other than to say, “during Covid”. Based on that, I am assuming your time scale is two and a half years (that’s how long Covid has been around). But I don’t know for sure if that’s the time scale you mean. More importantly, you never said when you expect to achieve your (again, unspecified) goal Y.
So could you specify this stuff? Doesn’t seem that hard.
1. What was your goal? I mean the reasonable assumption would be that your goal is to become fluent at Japanese, but you described yourself as a “casual learner”, which causes me to wonder if that is your goal. So what is it?
2. You used “apps”, plural, but then you only mentioned one. Could you list all the ones you used, and for how long?
3. Is all this based strictly on your personal experience, or have you asked anyone else about it, as well?
4. Where would you rate your progress towards your goal, and where would whoever else you asked about their experiences, rate their progress?
5. Please specify the time scale Z, in years and months, for when you expect method X to achieve goal Y.
Apps definitely have value! I just wish people wouldn’t treat them like they’re valid as the sole source for language learning. I have friends learning Spanish and French on Duolingo, and they do literally nothing else to build their language skills. They have no conversational ability and they have no comprehension of the spoken language, but dang, is their Duolingo streak impressive!
I like Duolingo for the same reason I like all my other sources: it’s one of many different wells I can draw from. I definitely think the textbook/classroom only approach is over-emphasized, but those are also delivered by people who have like, 3 or 4 degrees in teaching languages. They’re trustworthy and they’ve been sculpted with some pedagogical goal in mind. Apps are money-making endeavours first and foremost. :/
I think apps are fantastic and have also benefited immensely from them. That said, the value of the actual content in a good textbook (like Genki or Tobira) is very high. You can discover the same knowledge in other ways, but it’s already distilled and organized in these textbooks, so if you _can_ use a textbook, there’s definitely benefit to be gained.
Sometimes mental barriers are more or less persistent, but sometimes they are temporary. I gave up Flashcards for a long time because I felt like I was just dropping bricks on my head and they weren’t helping, but now I feel like I’m in a better place to use them, and they’re more helpful now.
So since you already have Genki, I might try to revisit it periodically.
Disclaimer: most of my “success” with textbooks has been in a class setting. They’re definitely more engaging when you’re required to use them in a group!
I’ve been using wanikani and duolingo as almost my only studying for the past year and some months. I can now get through any of the NHK easy articles and understand like 95% of the grammar and vocabulary. When I started I didn’t know any Japanese at all.
The Japanese duolingo course has a lot of issues but it can be effective if you know how to use it.
Before I started, i learned hiragana and kana using a separate app. Then i studied just with wanikani for a couple months. Having a good understanding of on and kunyomi will help a LOT with retention of vocabulary words from duo.
I read the first 2 or 3 chapters of tae kim before starting duo. It helps for just wrapping your head around the general concepts of Japanese (particles, word order, desu/iru/aru, adjectival clauses)
After that I’ve pretty much exclusively been using duo and continuing wanikani.
Issues with duo: the voice recordings don’t always get on/kun right, but if you know what the difference is you can understand what’s happening and ignore it
If there’s a lesson I’m not getting then I take a step back and Google the grammar concepts to find a better explanation.
My intention is to get through all of Duolingo then start focusing on reading practice with satori reader and then maybe light novels.
It’s not by ANY means the most efficient way to learn but it works for me and it’s fun. I find textbook study extremely boring but I’ve managed to get a daily habit of studying with this method that I’ve kept up with for over a year and I’m still going strong.
I think everyone knows that apps are a fine first step in the language, but the thing is being a casual learner in a language as difficult as Japanese for a native English speaker will only get you so far. If you want to just give it a go and see if you want to study more, I think Duolingo and Lingodeer are great first steps, but I probably would recommend going over Genki regardless.
I agree
I finished the entire duolingo japanese course and still couldnt pass n5.
it did help me get back into studying after a long break though. since then ive been studying on average four hours a day, but of course not on apps, unless you count book apps
That is a very popular opinion, Duolingo isn’t horrible but it isn’t great either, everyone acknowledges that it’s great to keep your attention and studying but it’s useful only up to a certain point
I think it’s important to note that I can’t just read Genki I at work without looking like I’m completely goofing off, but I can be on WaniKani and LingoDeer and no one knows for the most part.
Not saying that’s everyone’s experience but about 2-3 hours of my study every day is done at work, and it’s a lot easier to do digital learning while trying to look like you’re doing your job lol
I’ve been using Memrise for about 2 weeks now and it seems to be holding my attention. I’m going to Japan in 3 years in the fall so I have tons of time to get the basics down and try to become a bit understanding.
Would people recommend Renshuu over Memrise?
without commenting on duolingo itself, i’ve got to say i find the “just read a book” crowd hilarious. you need some pathway from “i read about 57 grammar points in a book today!” to the tacit knowledge that comes from implementing them. it isn’t in a book. and that’s not to knock books. if you’re not hearing things and trying to produce language under time pressure, then you’re building some sort of explicit knowledge. which is fine, have a blast. not a lot of folks can get things done with explicit knowledge in a crunch.
similarly hilarious are the immersion folks knocking duolingo. it is attempting to implement a gradual form of pseudo-immersion, where they expose you to new stuff that they haven’t explained (because they don’t explain anything), but if you actually *try* to figure it out, you’ve got a decent shot at doing so. (and i mean the “try” like you’re living with a japanese host family and you’d really like to eat dinner tonight but they seem to think you were fed at an earlier event kind of “try”. not the “i’m playing a video game and i tried really hard to score some points” kind.)
shit be complicated and there’s no easy solution.
Any studying is good studying, but I barely learned anything with duolingo.
I think the best method is cramming tons of words with Anki and then talking to natives to learn to use them.