It isn't the 1950's anymore, and I think we can handle Japanese names the way they are supposed to be. I'm just going to start doing it, and maybe even correct people in public. (fwiw, I did read a foreign policy book recently that used the Japanese name-order)
Anyway, for me, it feels like two separate names, so I have to remember it twice. I've even missed Wikipedia entries I was looking for because I searched with the Japanese name-order.
I usually kind of cringe at discussions around cultural autonomy and respect, but this actually seems like an area where it applies. We also don't do it to Chinese names for some reason
by vote4boat
20 comments
I think so. My brain has started automatically rearranging the names haha. For example if someone talking about Jujutsu Kaisen uses “Satoru Gojo”, before I can really think about it, my brain will read it as “Gojou Satoru”.
It’s funny that you mentioned Wikipedia articles. It’s quite bizarre. I recently played the Rise of the Ronin game. Except the player character and family, every major character is a real person (born in the 1800’s, some died in the 1800’s, while others died in the 1900’s). For example Sakamoto Ryouma. When I went to Wikipedia to find out more about the real man, I typed in “Ryouma Sakamoto”, knowing that Wikipedia uses western formats, however instead of going to his page, I got that search result where instead of what you searched for, it’s got the arrow and says “redirected from” and his entry was Sakamoto Ryouma. Same with Tokugawa Yoshinobu, the last shogun. “Cool”, I thought.
I finished the game and went back to my re-watch of Bungou Stray Dogs (also real people, but this time living and dying in the 1900’s). Curious about real life Dazai, I went to his Wikipedia page. Except “Dazai Osamu” redirected to “Osamu Dazai”. WHY? WHY ARE THEY USING TWO DIFFERENT NAMING FORMATS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE CENTURY?????
Rant over lol so yes, I agree they need to stop with this idea that “us westerners are too ignorant to recognise Asian naming conventions” and use Surname Firstname everywhere. Also, it irritates me when Japanese audio says “Surname-san” but the subtitles say “First name” hahah.
no
Is this really an issue?
Bring Japan inline with the rest of the world
I think everywhere else should give Last Name+First Name a shot instead
I’m in the habit of using the Given-Surname convention because that’s how I’ve always read it, but I do think it’s strange that we do it that way for Japanese, but not Chinese and Korean names. I forget which, but one journalistic outlet like the Economist or Foreign Affairs has enacted a policy of naming people in line with their language’s conventions, so their articles do stand out with headlines about “Kishida Fumio” and “Orban Viktor”, the latter I’m sure threw a lot of people, since most don’t realize Hungarian names are also ordered surname-first.
No, it needs to be reciprocal. I’ll start using the Japanese format when the Japanese start:
– Pronouncing names correctly instead of katakana-izing for their own convenience
– Understand what middle names are and when they are/aren’t used
– Respect that Spanish people have 12 last names
IMHO this debate is a pointless debate because it’s not *really* a debate about name order, which is unresolvable because neither way of doing it is intrinsically better than the other.
The debate is about identity more generally. The old way of doing things was under the assumption that names follow conventions of the languages they are used in: so a Japanese name used in the English language context would follow English language conventions – i.e. given first, then family. Likewise, an English name in a Japanese language context would be flipped to fit with Japanese language conventions, hence why in Japan I tend to introduce myself family name then given name. This way anyone from any origin can attempt to fit into any culture they end up living in.
Now people who have a bee in their bonnet about Chinese names want to change the old way of doing things so that names are inextricably linked to the cultural identity of the person born with them. A Japanese name would be Japanese regardless of context, an English name always English regardless of context. I don’t personally care for this approach because it leaves no room for people to adopt new cultural habits as they assimilate to new cultures around the world – people get locked into an inflexible rule from day one until they die. But people pushing for this are big mad that people with Chinese names don’t fit the system (even though Chinese people tend to adopt non-Chinese names in order to more easily fit cultural contexts when they move abroad). And if we change things, now everyone all over the world has to learn how names work in every language around the world just to identify who a person is.
So in my opinion it’s dumb to want to change it, but also there is no stopping people being insecure over China, so I’m not going to die on this particular hill.
So then should we start referring to non-Japanese names with given name first when speaking in Japanese? Should we insist that Japan accept middle names on all documents instead of cramming them together with the first given name?
In English we read names one way, in Japanese we read them another way. This isn’t an issue for most people.
What you do in your own correspondence is fine but correcting people in public is out of line. No one in Japan cares which way their name is listed and some even prefer the western convention when using English. You have absolutely no right to correct a third party in the way they’ve been instructed to address someone. If you have trouble figuring out which is the given name and which is the family name, that’s on you.
You talk about cringing at discussions about cultural autonomy and respect, but now want to force your views on others? Many Japanese, especially those who work with westerners automatically switch when speaking in or writing in Romanji. In some circles, it’s even fashionable to style their name in katakana or romanji in the western convention over kanji. The best advice is to do as the Romans do…which is if you’re introduced to someone by their first name, use the first name. If you’re introduced to someone by their last name, use their last name…or better yet, just ask before assuming someone wants to be referred to as family name, given name in mixed company.
BTW, Wikipedia and any other search engines will offer alternatives that takes two additional seconds to scroll through if you have the name flipped from what’s listed if there isn’t already a #redirect in place already.
I typically code switch. When it needs to be the one way. I say it that way. When it needs to be the reverse, then I do it that way. I feel like this is an easy switch. So I guess No would be my answer. As the other billion people who do it the opposite of me don’t care what I think.
Correcting people in public? Why? I think you will just come off as an intense and strange person that wishes they were Japanese and someone that no one would want to be around. No offense.
If someone wants to be called a certain way they will usually introduce themselves as such. I don’t think you have to be the savior for Japanese people when it comes to name appropriation. I have been living in Japan for a long time and have never had this problem. Most of the time Japanese people think it’s cool to go by a nickname.
This was a relatively recent thing, historical figures don’t have their names flipped, e.g. Oda Nobunaga, or even people as recent as Natsume Sōseki.
In 2019 the Japan Ministry of Education officially said that name order should be surname first even in foreign language. So if you get it wrong you sound like a moron depending on the context
lame and cringe
No.
Your ability to turn basic English words into incoherent babble casts doubt on your ability to correct anyone about anything.
I think we ought to just do surname-forename when talking about someones Japanese name in English. Often I’ll say an actors name, or just anyones name, in passing to my wife and she looks at me like I’ve gone crazy for a bit, then she realises who I’m talking about.
If you correct me in public I’m just gonna double down on calling people the way I do now and I’ll just start disregarding people that make your argument.
This is anyway Japan’s own fault. They switched the order themselves to ‘make things easier’ for international communication or whatever back during the Meiji period. That’s why we don’t do it to Chinese/Korean names. They don’t do it to themselves. It was never some intentional subjugation on the part of English speakers.