I have lived in Japan for several years but I only started mingling with expat groups and Reddit more recently due to COVID lockdowns. (I am British of Indian ancestry).
I find that a lot of the complaints are due to cultural differences between the US and Japan, but this subreddit seems to take the view that the American cultural practices are superior and often the complaints can apply against other countries as well. For example:
* The gaijin seat is more to do with presentation in my opinion. I have rarely been subject to the gaijin seat in the past and it is basically non-existent now. I often come across other foreigners (white, asian, indian…) who complain about this stuff and even *I* think that they look weird – in the UK it is often drilled into you that presentation is important. If a lot of these gaijin cared more about appearance then I think they would suffer from the gaijin seat less. This would be a normal viewpoint in much of Britain, but I think it is considered unusual from an American perspective.
* Similarly, a lot of the complaints about social etiquette and socialising seem to be cultural differences as well. It’s common in both London and Paris to not invite friends over to your home because a lot of people live in “bedtowns” or tiny apartments where you sleep only. If you have lived in London then Tokyo would not be “emotionally cold” for you, and you would know how to navigate the social scene. I also think that different cultures have different ideas of what a friend is, so people have different expectations of when a person becomes a friend. I personally find that socialising is normal in Japan and that making friends to no different to places like the UK. Being polite and being very indirect are normal aspects of British culture as well, so I find the social culture of Japanese really “normal” and these aspects of Japanese culture that people on this subreddit complain about actually *helps* me to socialise better.
* And on a similar line of thought on Korea and Osaka- people who say that Koreans are easier to make friends with forget that a lot of Koreans want to live overseas, and similarly there is a small bar/club area right in the centre of Osaka where Japanese people who like America will hang out – these people are no different to the “gaijin hunter” Japanese, and I think it is more a sign of Americans who who have never had to deal with multiple cultures. In the UK the ethnic minorities will integrate with the white people like a melting pot, so everyone is used to making good friends across severe cultural differences (so an Indian may have Whites and Asians as best friends), whereas in America there seems to be more racial and cultural segregation judging from my conversations with American expats.
Basically the point is that this subreddit can often attack “negatives” about Japan which are just cultural differences, and these cultural differences can apply to other cultures as well. I find that this subreddit is a vicious cycle of anti-Japan sentiment.
I think it might be harder for Americans to integrate and make friends in Japan, but that does not mean that Japanese culture is wrong.
42 comments
That’s true even if you’re an American. Sadly, there is a lot of rude, hostile, and immature behavior in this sub. As an American myself, it’s rather embarrassing, quite frankly.
There are a lot of whingers on here, but better reddit is a good and safe release valve for frustrations real or imagined.
I complain on here because I have no one else to complain to
I’m a USian and my complaints are constantly down voted. This sub (and a decent bit of reddit) are just toxic
>whereas in America there seems to be more racial and cultural segregation judging from my conversations with American expats.
This is heavily depended on where you are from. If you are from a major city in the US, it’s more likely you were not segregated from other cultures. In college I had 1 white friend. Everyone else were some other ethnicity and not just “hispanic” but Indian, Singaporean, Japanese, Sri Lankan, Cambodian, Chinese, Jewish, etc.. I know there are others but can’t think of any others at this moment. But it was very diverse.
If you’re some guy from Missouri who went to school in Missouri then moved to Japan, then yeah, likely going to have a more segregated experience.
Also not all of us Americans think US culture is superior. A lot of us think it sucks. Japanese culture is just different. Some Japanese culture sucks as well but in the end it’s just different cultures do things differently.
Sir, this is reddit.
Yep. Whenever I say I don’t like some Japanese processes or rules or whatever, people will say “But it’s better than the US!” No shit, half the world is better than the US, you’re setting the bar a bit low there. Doesn’t excuse Japanese workplace culture, healthcare shenanigans, bureaucratic nonsense, or whatever. For instance, I commented here once that it’s absurd that pregnancy and childbirth aren’t covered by health insurance in Japan, and the American mob kicked up a stink telling me I’m so lucky I’m not in the US. I don’t care about the US damn it, I just want proper healthcare here!
>Basically the point is that this subreddit can often attack “negatives” about Japan which are just cultural differences, and these cultural differences can apply to other cultures as well.
Kinda a dumb line of thinking tbh. Working overtime until 9PM everyday is also a “cultural difference” but one that is objectively awful. The same way tipping culture in the US is also fucking awful.
Culture practices are not immune from criticism and trying to shut down those criticisms with “c-c-cultural differences!!!” is lame. Lamer still when you follow-up with comparing these differences to your *own* culture which makes you come across as being more insecure and defensive about English cultural stuff than anything else.
Literally every post that is a complaint here has the same top comments:
-Something to the effect of how whatever the issue was happens everywhere in the world and the person complaining needs to stop hating on Japan/the Japanese.
-How the commenter has lived here for 37 years and has never even imagined such a scenario in their wildest dreams.
– It was probably the person with the complaint misconstruing something, not being fluent enough in Japanese to explain themselves or otherwise causing the problem.
I haven’t seen any posts with a distinctly American bent to it discussing something that bothered them in Japan period, let alone one that was highly regarded by the larger community here.
I’m not sure if it is actually an American things I not but I think it’s a case of negative people just being negative and how misery loves company.
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Let’s make a weekly thread on how your life was better here than if you stayed in the US. I could write a book.
The only thing that I miss about the USA are some friends and the food. But my last trip I went back, I gained like 5 kilograms over the course of 3 weeks so maybe it is necessary that I not be physically present in the USA for health reasons.
I was brought up in the UK/Aus system and being polite is a comfortable thing, even if it’s only face value.
This subreddit is toxic even if you’re American, don’t worry.
Agreed. It becomes an echo chamber of American ideals sometimes.
I think they forget we’re not all from kansas
However im getting tired of the back and forth between posters here that as soon as someone brings up a negative talking point, people on the other side flock and scammed to post a rebuttal.
Its 2022… there are pros and cons of japan. Im neither from the UK nor US and I still find people who see the empty seat, look at me then walk away…weird. have I gotten over it yes…Will I raise my child in it…no. my adult brain can deal with japans idiosyncrasies my future child’s won’t and I choose not to sacrifice them as a martyr to japans globalization
* End scene…curtains close*
Fellow brit. Completely agree about the “gaijin seat”. Never encountered this. I dress well and act appropriate.
I have seen plenty of Japanese and other Gaijin who I wouldn’t want to sit next to though, and can understand from a Japanese view even more why they wouldn’t. For example im not bothered about shorts and flip flops but a lot of Japanese find it weird at the wrong time and place. Or just generally people who look unfashionable, unkept(facial hair looking rough, maybe a greasy ponytail etc), old clothes, etc etc. its judgemental but its not any wonder why people dont want to sit next to some gaijin who are a certain way. Plenty of Japanese get the same treatment too.
I promise you if you look like a typical gaijin, dress well/fashionably enough, look clean and well groomed nobody will avoid sitting next to you.
Regarding the friendship/indirect thing with Britain, i disagree heavily. It feels similar on the surface till you look deeper and under the hood is nothing alike. The indirectness you thought you were having in your civil conversation? The Japanese people you interacted with feel attacked and worn out by “arguments” but just dont tell you. This kind of thing took way longer for me to realise.
I guess, a lot of people here are very young. It might be the first time in their life that they are away from hotel mama, have to fry their own eggs and wash their own clothes. Also, some of them might be from e.g. “a small village in Kentucky”, and now they have to navigate a juggernaut like Tokyo. All of that adds to the culture shock, many newbies are subject to – I know, I was.
Maybe life is just overwhelming at times, hence the negativity, and Reddit is the vent.
Not sure how related this is but when I went to Japan they drilled into us how we’ll experience terrible culture shock and it’ll be terrible and we’ll need to find ways to cope etc. etc.
They failed to mention it wasn’t Japanese people that would give me culture shock, but all the American expats I’d be hanging around with.
I definitely felt the British and Japanese mindset shared a lot more similarity than the British and American mindset.
>that does not mean that Japanese culture is wrong
You know us too well… Anyway. Me and my American friends will continue to spread the message that Japanese culture is objectively wrong and Americans are always correct.
There are some great moments where people have sought help and received it, funny topics and good informative posts about the latest change to some bank/government policy. I keep coming back because actually this place has been pretty informative, it’s not all negative.
The main thing you and a lot of other people in this sub need to realise is that different people have different experiences. To assume every complaint is the fault of the foreigner is to assume racism and xenophobia do not exist at all in Japan. If you accept some racists and xenophobes exist here, then you should also be able to accept that foreigners may encounter them in their daily lives. And as a POC from the UK and being of Indian heritage, you should have some understanding of the historical existence of prejudice, regardless of what your personal experience of that prejudice is.
And in your point on etiquette, you talk about home invitations. Obviously it depends on the person and what their home is like, but house parties, dinner parties, ‘gatherings’, etc. were (when I lived there) common as hell in London. Lots of people either living with their family or living with roommates, meaning they were in places more than big enough to host a few guests.
I really have to question your suitability for bringing nationalities into this debate as if your experience and opinions are meant to be typical for any Brit. Just speak for yourself and move on.
> If a lot of these gaijin cared more about appearance then I think they would suffer from the gaijin seat less. This would be a normal viewpoint in much of Britain, but I think it is considered unusual from an American perspective.
Every time this one is explained as an appearance problem and yet it’s never that simple. Also, assuming everyone on here complaining is American is pretty silly.
Wait…are you implying cultural superiority by claiming Americans are claiming cultural superiority? Or are you just being ironic?
Dude, just stay away from the negativity. It’s not worth your time. There are plenty of innocuous posts or advice seeking posts.
I maintain that 90% of problems on this sub can be solved by learning Japanese.
You’re comparing the average American to people that live in London or Paris.. but the reality is many people come from smaller suburbs or shitholes like Liverpool or Birmingham. They’d be weird and out of place in any major city in America too.
I’ve lived in London, Paris, some larger German cities, and while I agree with some of your points, I don’t think most complaints here are too US-centric, really…Honestly I feel like most complaints here are from people who are socially weird af, don’t speak the language well enough, or are really young/inexperienced with living in a foreign city. But that’s kind of the case everywhere.
At the same time Japan’s ‘culture’ can be extremely toxic in a lot of ways (and many of my Japanese friends will admit that and complain privately)… generalizing valid criticism into “it’s a cultural difference” to me somewhat implies that cultural values do not constantly change, as they do e.g. acceptance of “other” sexual orientations over the past 10 years, which has gotten a lot better. That said, if most people complain about things like “I feel like my neighbor may be looking at me weird for how I dispose of the garbage!”, life must be pretty good.
I feel like writing a rebuttal to some of this (*some* of this. You’re right not to care about the gaijin seat. Free space!), as someone who grew up in London but has had a rather different experience over here.
Not every British person is cool with being indirect. It infuriates some of us as much as it would a Dutchman. We’re all different, and just as there are some Americans who fit in really well in Japan, there are some of us from supposedly indirect cultures who would appreciate it if we didn’t have to f*cking second-guess every friendly turn of phrase.
(There’s also the question of whether the Japanese average is even more indirect than the British one, but I don’t feel confident enough to say anything about that one way or the other, especially because I live in famously Janus-faced Kyoto.)
I completely recognise your description of London. However, ethnicity and culture are not the same thing. As you predicted, a lot of my friends in the old country were – and are – not ethnically white British. However, we’re talking people who either a) moved to Britain decades ago and are thus culturally sort of half and half, b) are second-generation and just as London as I am, or c) are continental European and thus from the same cultural ballpark as Britain.
It would work just as well the other way round. When I talk to foreigners who have been here in Japan for ages and are content staying here forever, I notice how ‘Japanese’ their behaviour can seem sometimes, and I imagine it would be easier for your average Japanese person to make friends with them than with their brother who never left Nowhere, Oklahoma.
Thus, making friends in the London melting-pot is not the same task as making friends as a *new* immigrant in Japan, and most of this sub are relatively new immigrants.
Please don’t look down on those unusual Japanese people who probably want to live in a foreign country anyway. Honestly, despite my complaints, I’m not that badly off socially speaking, and that is largely thanks to unusual Japanese people.
So yeah. I totally get your suspicion of matters from across the pond (like the obsession with race) replicating all over the planet, but please don’t assume that everyone here that complains is jumping on an American bandwagon.
“I think it is more a sign of Americans who who have never had to deal with multiple cultures.”
You must be joking. America is THE melting pot, and is much more heterogeneous than Europe. All of the the New World is in comparison to Europe. (Just to include Canada, Mexico, and South America)
I always feel like I’m in my own bubble meandering gently through life while other peoples opinion and problems just flutter by like cosmic background radiation.
I’m a brit and dress well, do my best to not take up too much space on the train but still get the avoid sitting next to me scenario. Maybe it’s my resting sit next to me and I’ll bottle ya resting face.
My friends always go to each other’s house back in London. Maybe yours don’t like you that much? Kidding, everyone has different perspectives which makes life more interesting. Americans are just more prone to have to let you know what theirs is.
Reddit is primarily an American site, so it stands to reason it is mostly populated by Americans.
I certainly think Americans need to see the bigger picture in a lot of subreddits, since their perspective is limited.
But I feel here in particular, we are all in the same boat.
Its normal to point out negatives when you live somewhere thats different from where you grew up. Its how we tackle problems and social issues, and how we learn to deal with them.
There is no perfect country or culture.
It doesnt mean everyone hates Japan, its just a way to vent and share experiences.
I don’t think it’s got anything to do with bribing American(fwiw I’m mixed European). Some people are just really fixed in their ways and a bit daft.
A lot of people also don’t think about the context in which things come around. A lot of things in japan do actually make sense in the context they came from.
So yeah, you’re right about some thick individuals that post here but it’s more to do with their individual stubbornness than their nationality(though obviously more multicultural individuals are more flexible than people from monocultures)
“In the UK the ethnic minorities…”
Just going to stop you right there so I can point out to you that the people you’re talking about dislike the term you’re using. One way you’d maybe learn this is to live somewhere considerably more diverse, where lots of cultures mix like America.
Sure, small towns in the US aren’t super diverse, but most of the cities are very diverse, especially compared to the UK, and probably in comparison to anywhere else in the world.
You hating on Americans isn’t making this sub any less toxic.
This sub is also toxic to Americans with any sort of cosmopolitan experience and sense of decorum and civility.
The complaints are from the stereotypically loud, immature, boorish sort of Americans.
A similarly rude and uncouth British former staffer of mine had identical complaints.
Every point you make is well-taken, excepting that I’ve seen it’s more about the sort of person than their country of origin.
You clearly don’t know anything about America or American culture.
“and I think it is more a sign of Americans who who have never had to deal with multiple cultures. In the UK the ethnic minorities will integrate with the white people like a melting pot, so everyone is used to making good friends across severe cultural differences (so an Indian may have Whites and Asians as best friends), whereas in America there seems to be more racial and cultural segregation judging from my conversations with American expats.”
Every claim that you made here about America and Americans is extremely generalized and wrong. Believe it or not, in America we are also taught about the importance of personal hygiene, and we also have diverse friend groups. Also, even in America, I always met people out somewhere in public unless it was a close friend. Honestly, it’s pretty embarrassing that you had enough confidence in your shallow assessment of America to post this online.
It seems like you’re trying to somehow separate yourself from the entitled gaijin mentality by pinning it on Americans, which is pretty unfair.
This sub is toxic regardless of nationality lol. You’ll see a lot more downvoted threads and people being smartassses to people to people who are seeking help.
I’m also British and of Indian ethnic descent, but I actually disagreed with a lot of what you said. It’s weird to me that you claim the gaijin seat “isn’t a thing” and is just based on people’s shabby presentation. Seems like you’re making very generalised statements based purely on your (lucky) experience, which is just as bad as the people you’re complaining about. Anytime I’ve had the experience happen to me, I’ve been dressed smartly, not sweaty or smelly, taking up very little space and not manspreading or anything like that. It can still happen if you’re a foreigner and a male/brown foreigner in particular. Or perhaps if you’re “overweight” by someone’s measure. Saying it’s purely based on presentation is weird and dismissive. And there are a TON of people in the UK who look like hobos in a T-shirt and shorts, but I never remember an empty seat next to them on the tube, etc. I’ve only seen it to this extent in Japan.
Regarding another point you made, if you have experience of living in both a city AND countryside area, the fact is that Tokyo IS emotionally cold, in relative terms. Again, you’re trying to claim everyone complaining is American and seeing it through that lens, but you’re dismissing other people’s experiences. I’ve lived in places in Scotland and Wales which felt a LOT warmer (emotionally) than Tokyo, and strangers would literally talk to me in the streets/out in bars. That’s very rare in Tokyo, in my experience. Not saying it’s bad or weird, but I also totally get what people mean when they say it.
I get where you’re coming from (I.e. Americans should stop only seeing stuff from their own cultural lens and see everything else as inferior), but I also think you missed the mark a lot, unfortunately.
I am American and have lived in Japan for 20 years now. Japan still has some things to consider when it comes to dealing with non-Japanese and Japanese of mixed culture, but I have never felt I have a right to live here or demand improvement. I still think of myself as a guest and try to follow Japanese society as best I can to integrate, and have never really had a problem beyond getting a mortgage, and even that was surmoutable. I’ve never really had a problem with the way I was treated in Japan, I just thought “that’s a different perspective” and moved on. Japanese society seems to work pretty well for Japanese people.
I can’t wait till the borders open up and we can all stop attacking each other and start attacking tourists again, like we’re meant to be doing.
I remember being very confused about having to pay for health care, as I have never done it before in my life. So when I asked how expensive it would be for me to go to hospital, so many people had a go at me for being American.
I was so shocked that people in this sub were so nasty about it. All I wanted to know was whether health care is expensive or not. Turns out, its not expensive at all. But I don’t think anyone actually answered my question at the time.
I think people here just like to get on their high horse about stuff.
I mean, I agree on a lot of points that the cultural experience on this sub tends to skew American vs Japanese. However it’s just a fact that of native English speakers on this sub (and likely in japan) Americans overwhelmingly outnumber all the others. When I studied abroad there was somewhat of a divide between the American exchange students and students from other countries—but over half of the students were American. At the company I work at a little over half our foreign workforce is American and the other half from a range of other countries. Among my expat friends over half are American, not really by choice. (Hell, I’m American!) Just keep in mind demographics like these.
Personally, I think foreigners telling each other how they should live here is hilarious. I will happily ignore Japanese people who think they can tell me what to do because “it’s their country”. Does this logic mean I can confront Japanese in my country and demand they do what I say? I’m imagining myself doing this to tourists with a megaphone at the airport as soon as they get off the plane. I’ll put them to work in the fields and make them live in mud huts! Seriously, if you are in another country, you can do what the hell you like as long as you are not breaking the law. How terrible! So much free will! People who think differently can fuck off.
What a crock of nonsense. I remember clearly an immigrant Brit moaning about how hard it was to deal with life here for him. He even specifically said that most people incorrectly think that British people and the Japanese are similar when they are in fact very different. I also remember a Peruvian, Spaniard, Filipino, Korean, Indonesian, and Chinese complaining about life in Japan.
All you Japan warriors need to get out of your manga closets for a second and realize that the entire Internet worships anything Japan. Even in the real world, I cannot count how many people have expressed envy and admiration (especially from Americans) when they find out I live in Tokyo and speak Japanese as if it’s a status symbol.
This subreddit provides a space for immigrants to rant about their many culture shocks because Japan is not some mystical Shangri-La. It’s normal that many immigrants–not just Americans–experience difficulty adjusting to life here. You’re not a special breed of highly-civilized, highly-adjusted, well-refined expat. Get off your high horse and worry about the brain-dead drunks in London before the Americans on this sub.