I understand this may come off as sounding insecure but I just feel the need to vent and wondering if anyone can sympathise.
I’ve found foreigners in Japan and Japanese learners in general vastly overrate their own Japanese ability.
I’ve heard people with dreadful pronunciation, broken grammar and sentence structure and an inability to read even basic primary school level texts describe themselves as ‘intermediate’ or ‘advanced’.
It seems to be a trend among Japanese learners and I’m wondering if this is perpetuated by outside reinforcement? We all know the cliche “日本語が上手ですね”, but is the constant empty compliments of those around them feeding into these ideas of being better at the language than they actually are?
Posts on this sub are also suspicious. Countless threads about being saying that they have “conversational Japanese” yet complain people always want to speak English with them, or that people direct their responses towards their spouse. I imagine if they were actually good at Japanese this wouldn’t happen.
I guess I just get frustrated seeing people who suck pretend they don’t suck and then blame Japanese people for not respecting their ability.
TLDR foreigners overrate their Japanese skills and it’s annoying.
18 comments
Have you heard about the Dunning-Kruger effect ?
It’s not limited to japanese ability.
Based on your own criteria 90% of native English speakers are also not “advanced”
Meh. My overall Japanese (test level) sucks, and I know it does. But I don’t need perfect grammar/ pronunciation to be a successful user of Japanese, just as Japanese learners of English don’t need perfect grammar and pronunciation to be highly functional in English. For everyday life, they aren’t necessary.
Japanese people feed westerners ego buy saying 日本語上手 all the time. Rather than replying with そんなことじゃない etc the westerner will just let the compliment go to their head.
The WORST type of person is the one who tells people who aren’t learning the language that they can speak fluent Japanese by saying 元気です、 はじめまして etc. I have a friend in the UK who knows how to say a couple of phrases that he’s practiced so it sounds good but has no idea about the particles or words that he’s saying. He managed to trick so many people at his workplace and his friends and family that he is completely fluent in the language by saying those same phrases over and over again and the people who are listening to him have no idea that he’s repeating himself.
Something I read either on Reddit or Twitter and started doing myself was never referring to myself as “fluent,” because the word is a sort of trap that implies that you’ve “beaten” Japanese and have nothing else to learn.
Once you hit that point it’s very easy to stagnate and that’s an easy path to becoming one of those lifers with absurdly bad pronunciation who only uses desu/masu.
Being good at Japanese means being able to listen to a simultaneous interpreter do their thing and think “wow, my Japanese is dogshit in comparison,” because if you can tell the difference and understand things they’re managing easily that you struggle with, your language skills are better than you think.
‘Conversational’ doesn’t really tell you much about someone’s ability. A lot of people think N3 is intermediate level, but then usually that’s when you’re just starting to get to grips with Japanese.
I don’t know why you’d get wound up about it though. Japanese ability has always been a bit of a dick measuring competition amongst gaijin, or also a way to put people down. I’ve given up caring that much about other people’s Japanese.
Why does it bother you ?
Did someone with a lower Japanese level than yours stole your job or work promotion?
What mean been intermediate or advanced? It’s just a perception regarding how much Japanese you need in your life.
I work for a Japanese company, I’m the only non Asian in the company, and the only non Japanese speaker in my department.
I’m mostly unable to read kanjis, and definitely can’t hand write in Japanese. On the other hand, I’m doing my job without any problem, can communicate in Japanese with my coworkers and our clients. Write tons of daily emails in Japanese, read tons of daily emails in Japanese, participate to tons of useless meetings in Japanese.
How I do the emails part when I said I was mostly unable to read and write in Japanese? Online translator.
After years working in Japanese, I can’t read the kanjis, but I can identify when the translation is wrong. I recognize the kanjis and know when there is a mistake even if I will not be able to understand it if you show it out of context.
Same when writing, I can’t write it directly in kanjis, but when I write it on my keyboard I’m able to recognize which kanjis is the correct one I among the suggested kanjis.
So based on what I said. I work for a Japanese company, work only with Japanese speakers. Only speak Japanese a home with my wife (native language and Japanese with kids) etc.. would you say I have a beginner, intermediate or advance level of Japanese?
You are brave, OP. Very brave. Hopefully this thread results in some interesting discussion and is not downvoted to oblivion. It is something that sorely needs to be discussed but a lot of people feel very insecure about their language skills, so be prepared for some hostility
Yes, and I’ve seen those same foreigners thinking that it’s impossible to get N2/N1 in 1 – 2 years because “it’s too advanced”
N1 is still basic Japanese.
Also, someone already mentioned the dunning Kruger effect, and that’s about it. Not limited to Japanese ability at all.
Yep, I’ve met many foreigners in Japan with shitty Japanese that think their Japanese is amazing. They consider themselves “fluent”, because people around them tell them how good they are.
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What I find amazing is that these people can’t read novels in Japanese, can’t express complex opinions, and can’t talk about any remotely difficult topics… yet they consider themselves “fluent”.
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I’ve been in Japan for about 13 years, and I read/speak about as good as a Japanese 13 year old. I’ve come to terms with that.
> TLDR foreigners overrate their Japanese skills
In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue. News at 11.
The better I get at Japanese the more I realize how I actually suck at it.
This happens with any skill/hobby I’ve heard people talk about. Whether it’s playing instruments, speaking a foreign language, or playing a sport.
People overrate their Japanese, yes.
I will say this tho. the example of you speak of when the Japanese people keep talking to the spouse/gf/bf who is Japanese instead of the foreigner. This happens all the time no matter where you go.
Happened to me all the time when I traveled with my ex JP gf. At restaurants or whatever.
Even if you’re Japanese is shit, pointing at pictures on a menu is not difficult.
You got to says that your Japanese is intermediate to get a job(note that you need to have N3 certification to prove that…no matter how good you speak or how avg or bad is your Japanese is CERTIFICATE MATTERS ALOT ).
Ultimately who cares?
Are they in professions where deep contextual knowledge and understanding on the level of someone born and raised there is required?
More often than not, no.
Better to be somewhat confident in what you do know than insecure about what you don’t.
As long as they can communicate effectively enough to form relationships, take care of basic needs, and etc. That’s what matters
Language ability isn’t a singular ability. There are many different parts to it. A person can pass N1 because they focus on reading, kanji, and grammar but maybe they don’t have a lot of conversations so their speaking ability can be terrible. And vice versa. Someone into calligraphy might be able to write a million kanji perfectly but maybe they also can’t hold a conversation. Someone who learned Japanese passively by talking with classmates, friends and coworkers might need to check their dictionary for that one annoying kanji in their address they can’t quite remember when writing it in a form.
Context is also important. Some anime and video game language nerd might know all the vocabulary for obscure words related to hit points, armor, power ups and whatever but they might not know some other basics words. And the academic that focuses only on their field of study, as complicated as it may be, might not know how to read the menu in a restaurant. Flip it around and you have the socialite foodie that eats out a lot and can talk with the waiter at lengths about the source of the food and ingredients and what not but maybe they can’t read a newspaper.
So, when someone is saying they are “conversational” it might mean that they feel comfortable having a conversation in a context they are used to. There is no one standard to determine what counts as advanced language skill. I am a native English speaker but when I proofread things with my clients about accounting or academic biology or chemistry papers I have to consult the dictionary often.
Watashi wa nihongo jouzu ( -∀-)