edit: actually since we’re on the topic, define fluency too
You don’t need textbooks or apps, just watch anime, you’ll pick up the language soon enough. Nah jk just study an orthodox way using textbooks etc and slowly phase it out as u progress to reading engaging in media.
Yes… Reading things other than textbook materials is good for reinforcing your grammar skills and learning new vocab. It’s comprehension practice.
I live in Japan so it’s hard not to…buuuut my hearing is so bad it doesn’t actually help with speaking or listening comprehension.
I mean immersion is kind of the ultimate goal of learning a language isn’t it? You either want to be able to speak to locals, or read materials in the language or something like that. You get better at a specific thing by practicing.
Formal study quickly gets you to the stage where you can start to consume Japanese media. From there immersion is the next logical step. It still needs to be supplemented by formal study when you come across new grammar and vocab. Formal study should increasingly fall way with time (unless you have a specific academic interest in the language).
That covers the consumption side (reading/listening). Production (writing/speaking) is a different set of skills, and far more difficult to immerse in as you need someone who is willing and able to receive and correct your output. Consumption is a logical first step for beginners though as it’s much easier to immerse in – and, no doubt, there is some cross over into production.
As for fluency – if you define that as being able to use Japanese as you would your native language, then I think immersion is absolutely required. To use a language in the real world, you must practice it in the real world.
I’ve never heard a convincing definition of immersion or of fluency or of 99% for that matter.
What do you mean by “immersion”? Because in this sub, “immersion” can mean anything from turning off your anime subtitles to living your life 24-7 surrounded in Japanese.
I read novels in Japanese – maybe about 10-20 pages/day, and watch some streams and animu in Japanese occasionally. That’s about as much as I feel like doing though. “Immersion” in any meaningful sense doesn’t appeal to me though – I enjoy English media, and I don’t care so much about learning Japanese or Japanese media that I’d want to surround myself with it at all times.
But yeah, sure – if your goal is “fluency”, “immersion” is probably a great way to get there. Just work out what those terms actually mean to you in more concrete terms first.
If you are fluent when talking about weather and food, that is different from discussing your emotions with friends or exchanging your political opinions with others. What level or area do you want to be fluent in? When you immerse yourself in a real life environment, everything will be thrown at you I suppose. Or, do you mean immersing in a fictitious Japanese space ?
Thought I’d give my perspective as someone who does no textbook study- for the few months I’ve been just doing immersion and I think it greatly is helping. Sure you need to put a lot of hours in, but you get a lot out. I don’t think anyone who has never listened to real speech out of Genki and JLPT would be actually good at the language.
I personally find the whole idea of memorizing and drilling grammar stupid because I’ve never done that for English, and in natural languages the grammar was adopted to fit the language, not the other way around. For every “rule” in a language, there are 100 exceptions. Immersing builds up your subconscious mind so you don’t have to remember these meaningless rules. For reference, I’ve probably put about 200-300 hours in Japanese (~100 hours with immersion, 50 with anki, others scattered in other areas) and am able to have a pretty good comprehension of a show without doing any lookups. I’m able to understand almost every sentences function and most of the words in it, and can easily understand plot.
Hope this helps, I can also answer any questions if needed
You need some immersion to get anywhere, as a reinforcement tool, but relying on it alone will teach you absolutely nothing besides the occasional common phrase.
11 comments
can you define immersion?
edit: actually since we’re on the topic, define fluency too
You don’t need textbooks or apps, just watch anime, you’ll pick up the language soon enough. Nah jk just study an orthodox way using textbooks etc and slowly phase it out as u progress to reading engaging in media.
Yes… Reading things other than textbook materials is good for reinforcing your grammar skills and learning new vocab. It’s comprehension practice.
I live in Japan so it’s hard not to…buuuut my hearing is so bad it doesn’t actually help with speaking or listening comprehension.
I mean immersion is kind of the ultimate goal of learning a language isn’t it? You either want to be able to speak to locals, or read materials in the language or something like that. You get better at a specific thing by practicing.
Formal study quickly gets you to the stage where you can start to consume Japanese media. From there immersion is the next logical step. It still needs to be supplemented by formal study when you come across new grammar and vocab. Formal study should increasingly fall way with time (unless you have a specific academic interest in the language).
That covers the consumption side (reading/listening). Production (writing/speaking) is a different set of skills, and far more difficult to immerse in as you need someone who is willing and able to receive and correct your output. Consumption is a logical first step for beginners though as it’s much easier to immerse in – and, no doubt, there is some cross over into production.
As for fluency – if you define that as being able to use Japanese as you would your native language, then I think immersion is absolutely required. To use a language in the real world, you must practice it in the real world.
I’ve never heard a convincing definition of immersion or of fluency or of 99% for that matter.
What do you mean by “immersion”? Because in this sub, “immersion” can mean anything from turning off your anime subtitles to living your life 24-7 surrounded in Japanese.
I read novels in Japanese – maybe about 10-20 pages/day, and watch some streams and animu in Japanese occasionally. That’s about as much as I feel like doing though. “Immersion” in any meaningful sense doesn’t appeal to me though – I enjoy English media, and I don’t care so much about learning Japanese or Japanese media that I’d want to surround myself with it at all times.
But yeah, sure – if your goal is “fluency”, “immersion” is probably a great way to get there. Just work out what those terms actually mean to you in more concrete terms first.
If you are fluent when talking about weather and food, that is different from discussing your emotions with friends or exchanging your political opinions with others. What level or area do you want to be fluent in? When you immerse yourself in a real life environment, everything will be thrown at you I suppose. Or, do you mean immersing in a fictitious Japanese space ?
Thought I’d give my perspective as someone who does no textbook study- for the few months I’ve been just doing immersion and I think it greatly is helping. Sure you need to put a lot of hours in, but you get a lot out. I don’t think anyone who has never listened to real speech out of Genki and JLPT would be actually good at the language.
I personally find the whole idea of memorizing and drilling grammar stupid because I’ve never done that for English, and in natural languages the grammar was adopted to fit the language, not the other way around. For every “rule” in a language, there are 100 exceptions. Immersing builds up your subconscious mind so you don’t have to remember these meaningless rules. For reference, I’ve probably put about 200-300 hours in Japanese (~100 hours with immersion, 50 with anki, others scattered in other areas) and am able to have a pretty good comprehension of a show without doing any lookups. I’m able to understand almost every sentences function and most of the words in it, and can easily understand plot.
Hope this helps, I can also answer any questions if needed
You need some immersion to get anywhere, as a reinforcement tool, but relying on it alone will teach you absolutely nothing besides the occasional common phrase.