Lately there have been a lot of posts asking for services in English (everything from locksmiths to gyms, tennis clubs, churches and even mental health professionals) and I realized through that and yesterday’s thread about friends that a lot of foreigners who congregate on Reddit seem to be eternally stuck at the beginner level in the language.
What’s keeping you from fluency? Is it time? Lack of opportunities? Laziness? Maybe you’re trying really hard but it’s just not going well? Of course the reason varies by individual so I want to hear your story. I know some users have only recently arrived so it’s unrealistic to expect them to be fluent but many users have made comments about living here for 20+ years and not being fluent.
30 comments
In my case I struggled a lot in the beginning due to using learning methods that just weren’t very good in practice. Stuff like brute forcing vocab and writing kanji over and over and over. After I while I changed up my methods to try an immersion based approach and that helped me out a lot. I do a lot of daily reading and that helped me to boost my level a lot until I reached a point where I could easily talk with people thanks to the boosted vocab and grammar from reading, and those conversations helped to improve my speaking and listening skills so that having conversations became a lot more manageable. These days I don’t have any major problems with communication but back in the beginning I thought that learning Japanese was practically impossible because everything I tried just didn’t seem to work.
Eh, sometimes you just want to relax and be assured you understand everything. My Japanese is pretty fluent and I use Japanese at work everyday, but I still find it more relaxing to speak English especially when I’ve been speaking Japanese all day. Sometimes you just want interactions where you’re not going to have to think that much. That being said, there are pretty much 0 English services around me for anything, so I don’t actually really use them 😅
I was here as a student so had loads of time. I don’t know how people who show up here for work are able to learn very quickly. Life is already stressful and can be pretty busy! Not saying it’s impossible, but I do have sympathy for people having to go out into the world to find good learning experiences on top of doing work (probably in an English-only environment).
Personally, I don’t get requiring English for every service out there. That’s with me not being fluent as well. (I get burnt out while studying, so I through periods where I don’t do any while I look for new methods). However, I will always look for an English option for health matters. It’s unfortunate if there isn’t one and I’ll settle for pure Japanese, but I’d rather not have to second guess if I actually understood what was being said for something that important.
Not everyone requires a super high fluency of Japanese for their jobs, and as a result they don’t ever really need to learn Japanese. As an example, my parents, who work in the IT industry and moved here at least 20 years ago. They speak conversational Japanese, and can live daily life without a hitch. They have a driver’s license and do the 車検 in Japanese, we’ve had medical emergencies and in the ambulance and hospital they could only use Japanese, and they’re cordial with our Japanese neighbours and can comfortably have passing conversations with them. But they can’t really read or write well, or comprehend technical news in Japanese.
They moved here for work in their early 30s, and since they already had in-demand skills, were never really forced to learn Japanese for employment. Their social circle is mainly expats or returnee families. They plan to happily retire in our home country.
I think their comfortable lifestyle and the fact that their QOL doesn’t increase drastically by learning Japanese is what keeps them from learning. My parents are definitely not “lazy” considering their impressive educational background and skills. I think it’s more to do with a cost-benefit analysis. Put simply, it’s not worth it for them to struggle learning advanced Japanese at this point in their lives. They can much rather devote their energy elsewhere and reap greater benefits.
P.S. Also, I think with raising 2 kids and working full-time jobs, they were strapped for time as well. Please go easy on them xD
I have a learning disability, I’m lazy, I’m married to an American, and I have a job where I’m forbidden to speak Japanese.
You keep yourself from learning anything. That’s all there is to it. It’s easier to make excuses and justify failure, than to attempt than to endure the hardships and frustrations of big effort for gradual return.
The time commitment is what’s slowing me down
Nothing. It’s a necessity here. My progress has always been slowed by the lack of Japanese language schools for foreigners in this area, though, so I’m mostly self-taught between books, CDs, Rosetta Stone, Rocket Languages, Duolino, and watching Japanese TV. My Japanese husband is also fluent in English, so we always spend a lot of time conversing in English, which doesn’t help my Japanese progress.
2 kids + work × 0 time + dyslexia = go fuck youself
😉
For me, it’s time and also my work situation. I spend most of my time travelling and working (dispatch to kindergarten) that I can’t properly study or converse with people in Japanese. If I do, it’s 5 year old conversation or the random small conversation with kindergarten staff if I’m lucky.
I joined Kumon to learn Japanese in my free time, and found that my short study time was becoming a waste of money. Everything that I studied wouldn’t stick because I wasn’t able to focus on it properly and also utilise it properly in everyday situations.
I definitely could have studied harder, but I admire those who can successfully balance work and study. I need to find a better alternative for myself and push myself harder to use Japanese more often.
I am fortunately at a point now where I don’t need English language services, currently going through the early motions of finding a property here and managing all the legalese, documentation and discussions in Japanese.
That said, using Japanese in a myriad of workplaces (international sales → domestic sales → IT helpdesk → IT security) is what made me git gud. Not cohabitating with my wife, not drinking with friends, not the 4 year degree in Japanese studies. I understand that folks teaching English who are being explicitly told not to use Japanese in the workplace are also at a serious disadvantage in that regard.
Also, let us not forget that Japanese is fucking hard. I have managed but only after tons of blood, sweat, tears and the best part of 10 years. People get way too judgemental of their fellow foreigner over Japanese ability. Making an effort despite limited proficiency is still admirable.
Executive dysfunction
Very often it’s just complacency. Some try and learn in their early years and/or get tons of help from their Japanese partners. After a while, their Japanese reaches “good enough” levels and leave anything harder to family, co-workers, translation apps, etc.
Time, really. And I don’t mean finding the time to study/read/etc. It’s just fluency in Japanese takes at least a few years of steady effort, and I’m in the middle somewhere.
Also, there are so many methodologies out there, and I never really settled on a single one. My brain rejects SRS after a while (like an alcohol tolerance, in a way), so I switch it up when it gets too dreary. I read a few pages from a novel everyday, brush up and learn new grammar from JLPT prep books (not that I intend to ever take the test) once a week (with iTalki teachers), try to make sense of Terrace House at least one episode a day, and have as many real life conversations as possible – whether that’s talking with shop staff about something I’m interested in buying, or sitting at a bar for way too long talking to the other regulars (and missing a good chunk of what they are saying).
I wish there were more structured textbooks for post-Tobira level. I get that native material is the way, but I think there is still a need to explicitly learn more advanced concepts besides JLPT drill books.
I imagine the need for an English service is mostly from people who need that service right away, like a dentist.
I’ve learned Japanese before coming to Japan so I haven’t had a real problem with that area yet.
I can understand that many people don’t need Japanese for work but for those who want to live here long-term (especially those who say they want to live here forever), I have a hard time understanding why some people would genuinely CHOOSE to not study.
I know several people through work that often say they are struggling with finding friends and complain that nobody in their workplace or neighborhood speaks English. They can’t go to the doctor when they’re sick because they can’t find somebody to interpret for them (even with city support services). They still choose to not learn.
I understand it can be a hassle and finding time can also be a struggle depending on works schedules (especially for those of us who can’t take regular lessons because of work hours). That being said, I’d take being independent in my everyday life (not to mention the career opportunities) because Japanese is something I took the effort to learn over needing to rely on somebody else for even simple everyday needs.
I also acknowledge those who are taking the effort to learn to the best of their ability. Good on you! It’s a struggle and can take time but I truly hope that you keep the motivation to study and practice at every opportunity because it truly is worth it in the long run.
I studied it in college but was a gifted kid and so I was never taught how discipline works (usually I studied last minute and assumed that’s how all people learned) . Didn’t get very far but wasted a lot of time. Since coming it took me two years to really learn how to properly study, and I’ve been slowly chipping away with inconsistent effort since then.
Personally, I think it’s a lot more commitment than people realize, especially the advantaged types who started young or are naturally inclined towards language. It takes me 2+ hours every day to review old material and study new material, which doesn’t even include interacting with native materials.
Japanese is important to me, but it’s hard to say that it’s more fulfilling than things like writing, reading or going to the gym. It’s a narrow language used in a single country. Most foreigners I’ve met who are fluent have few other hobbies and are (*intensely over-generalizing here*) usually boring as shit. I tend to think that the commitment required to get good at Japanese can cause you to be lacking in other pursuits. Whenever I’ve made great progress, I’ve felt empty and unfulfilled and had to stop before getting burned out.
According to the doctor, a learning disability connected to Asperger’s has made it so that learning a foreign language will never be a possibility for me. I still can’t form a sentence and know hardly any vocabulary despite almost a decade of living here. But it’s certainly not for lack of trying! I took four years of weekly lessons and barely got through the pre-beginner book even though I studied and did homework and listened for hours every week. Most language schools and private teachers were unable, and generally unwilling, to consider techniques that might help me, despite my making suggestions of exactly what I felt needed help with. For language schools, this inability to teach me was not a surprise since most language school teachers don’t have any educational training (no different than many English teachers). But the private teachers I contracted with should have done better implementing my suggestions since they didn’t have a fixed curriculum binding them to a particular teaching model. I have had the most “success” using a phonics-based book for intellectually disabled, native-speaking Japanese kindergarteners published by the Yokohama school system (ISBN 978-4-7803-0735-1, red book, smiling kid holding a sign on the cover). I am a big believer in the existence of the “Foreign Language Learning Disability”, which is still a theoretical, academic concept with a lot of circumstantial evidence behind it but no formal research or scientific models on which to produce a reliable diagnostic test. Both I, and the doctor I worked with for the autism diagnosis, believe that I have a learning disability for foreign language learning. I am normally a top-of-the-class, straight-A kind of student, so this experience of not being able to learn something is bewildering to me and one of the greatest frustrations of my life. But all I can do is learn what little I can even though my brain fights me all the way. Despite these difficulties, I recently finished a Ph.D. at a major U.S. university in an area of Japanese culture, so I was able to make progress understanding Japan in other ways, and I am able to live here with the help of my Japanese husband, so I am grateful for that.
My Japanese hit a plateau years ago at advanced beginner/intermediate. I run a farm and work 7 days a week from early morning until after dark. I do not go out and party or socialize unless it’s to visit a couple friends. Work related conversations I handle fine so any help I hire I do not have trouble assigning them a task or instructing them. My wife speaks native level English and she’s really the only person I talk to. So, I’ve no time to study or opportunity to practice. I only go to a handful of home centers and most of our materials are shipped directly to the farm. I haven’t been inside of a grocery, drug store or any other regular place in probably 8 or 9 years. I may go to LL Bean or Mont Bell to pick up some clothes every other year but most things are ordered online. We don’t even go to the dealer to buy cars and instead the dealer has came here each time. I basically live in a little tormented shell.
Hearing loss means I pick up nothing naturally. So I have to hit the books hard to retain literally anything.
That said, I haven’t given up learning by any means, but it’s going to be a very long road.
At least I can read and write.
I came here as a student so I had a plenty of time to spend reading tons of novel, watching anime, drama etc. That’s how I improved my Japanese.
Now that I work, I can’t imagine how to learn Japanese while you are too busy.
Motivation is another factor. I know a lot of people who come here only to work and save money. Nothing more, nothing less, so unless they are required to use more fluent Japanese at work, they see no incentive to improve.
Having a job that specifically forbids using Japanese, having severe ADHD that prevents me from focusing on some parts (writing mainly) as well as living in Yokosuka, an area where more often than not you’ll find English speakers.
Be that as it may, I’ve picked up enough to get around and conveys a decent amount of information, so I’m not completely hopeless.
I do my best with the time I have to learn Japanese. But it is sometimes mentally exhausting spending every waking hour surrounded by a foreign language. Sometimes people just need to use their native language to decompress and relax. Especially when it comes to health concerns, people want to understand as much as possible so they can make an informed decision if needed, and understand any and all associated risks with their health. Imagine being in your own country and asking “why don’t people just learn X language?” – there are so many reasons why someone may not be able to use a service in a non-native language, we should reserve judgment.
Its slowly progressing but not at the pace I would like. Highly demanding job, wife and kids. Once you put all these together, if you want to focus down on japanese, you’ll have to sacrifice the little free time you have left.
Let me tell you about my experience working with non English speakers in Australia.
I worked at a government funded interpreting service. Only one of its kind in the world. We offered interpretation in about 200 languages. All these people needed to access services most people can access easily but in their native language. We all know from living here how dreadful it can be trying to access some of the most simple thing because of language barrier. If someone wanted an interpreter, they got one, despite English ability, if they felt they needed that, they got it.
Now there are many reasons some immigrants in Australia don’t speak perfect English. One could be their access to classes, maybe they don’t have the time or money. Maybe they immigrated for work or family and they haven’t learnt. Maybe they don’t feel the need because learning a new language is a massive endeavour and they simply can not set aside the mental and physical requirements it takes to become fluent.
People also stay close to their communities and people who speak the same language because it’s easier for them, culturally and language wise.
It is important to give access to services in people’s native languages. We have no idea how it feels to not go to a doctor because the doctor can’t speak Burundi for example.
On that maybe those people also spoke 2 or 3 languages on top of that.
Also these people aren’t going up to any random Australian person and trying to practise their English with them like some people do here with Japanese. Maybe their married and can’t bar hop to make friends and practice, maybe they are full time mothers or introverted people.
I saw your other post about why some people find it hard to make friends in Japan. I think extending a little compassion and logical thinking will help you learn that not every gaijin that comes to Japan comes for the same reasons or with the same resources as you. It happens in every country with its immigrant community.
For whatever reason these people may have, it’s their reason and it’s good enough.
Everyone has a different level, and different services and interactions require different levels of competence.
Neighbourly small talk, shopping, Locksmith, dentist, doctor, church, buying a car, getting a mortgage, getting a pilots license, defending oneself in court..
It’s a sliding scale and most people except the very best of us here, would probably need help at one point in that list (or at least focus their study on that area for a while).
Most people study up to their necessary level to navigate life, and that’s different for all of us.
For the majority of people it’s lack of time and energy. Work destroys your mind and body. When I hear about people who are fluent, most of them learned it while living a low stress life where they could focus their energy on learning the language.
When people talk about “learning Japanese,” I often think the way they do it is really misguided. People talk about learning Japanese like it’s a binary: either you haven’t learned it and you can’t do anything, or you’ve learned it and now you can do everything in perfect Japanese. The fact is, probably no one in this conversation “hasn’t learned” or “has learned” Japanese. We are all in some stage of interlanguage, and an honest look at our progress would show a lot more similarity within us than difference. But then acknowledging what we have in common doesn’t support ranking ourselves against each other, and that’s unfortunately something that a lot of immigrants here seem to crave.
I’m not one of the people who has posted asking about English-language services, but I don’t think people who do should be made to feel bad about it. We’re all at some stage of interlanguage, and that means we all have moments we don’t understand what we’re being told. Sometimes we can negotiate across that gap in Japanese. Sometimes we need additional support. Where the line between those two lies depends in part on our individual interlanguage level, but partly it depends on the stakes of the information potentially in the gap. I see a doctor with fairly mediocre English ability and we negotiate my routine issues in Japanese, but you can bet if he found a serious cancer or something like that, I would consider an English-speaking specialist.
Whenever I see someone post a request for someone looking for English support, it would be easy to smugly pat myself on the back for having better Japanese than they do, but it may well not be the case. It may just be that they have need for much less ambiguity and uncertainty than my Japanese interlanguage would give me.
Life in Japan isn’t a competition. We’re all in different spots. We all have different needs. We all have different jouneys. But we can always help each other. Or failing that, we can at a minimum get out of each other’s way.
Don’t forget a lot of people aren’t here permanently, just for work.