I agree because even if you don’t absorb everything in a particular text in the moment, you still consciously and subconsciously pick up fundamental bits of info that starts to connect concepts the more you consume. The same way the image on a puzzle starts to form even if at first you’re limited to “gathering the red pieces” and so on.
But I still think the amount of time it takes to start gaining traction in those concepts is directly related to how much of a formal foundation you give yourself before immersing. I’m in the camp that thinks most that try Japanese like this will become discouraged without a solid foundation first. Maybe I would do this for a romance language, but not an asian language.
That sure is *a* method. The most *effective*? Not for everyone, definitely. I’d be frustrated to tears, and would more likely give up than make **any** progress.
“The meaning will come to you” is a nice sentiment, but it is *really* demotivating to know words on their own and **none** of the real meaning – that’s the reason I *gave up* for a while. If that’s happening often enough that you feel you have **no** understanding and **no** progress, no matter how easy the content should be, you need more structure to help. And that’s *fine*.
Sidenote, I don’t understand why some people have so much distaste for TL subs. I’ve heard the argument that some people will charge ahead on content that’s far too advanced for them, on the basis they can read the words and wind up neglecting their listening, but at the same time I’d think it’s a **good** thing to be associating spoken forms with the way they’re written.
In any case I can’t very well go without them because I have issues with hearing… But I think it’s more a matter of learning how to *balance* your input so you’re not accidentally neglecting either skill. I’d rather the takeaway for beginners be learn how to *find* that balance, rather than saying not to use subs (a genuinely useful tool even for the fully-hearing) outright.
I agree cuz that works for me
It worked pretty well for me when I (kinda accidentally) learned English, and has also been working great for Japanese so far, so yes
I agree with it because I tried every other method and immersion was the only one that worked for me. Also everyone else I know who reached a high level in Japanese, and everyone I know who is fluent in English as a non-native did so via immersion.
I’m not really sure that “read more” counts as “hardcore immersion”. It’s hardly AJAAT is it? It’s just reading more. What were you going to do, not read? But generally speaking yes “read more” works. The only way you will get better/faster/etc. at reading Japanese is by actually doing it and it gets easier over time. As others have said, it worked for me. I read a lot and now I can read a lot. Can’t listen to anything though because I focused exclusively on reading. So do be careful of that part.
That website is pretty blunt about it but they’re also right. I could tell my reading speed and comprehension was improving as i progressed from chapter to chapter within the first visual novel i read. Now i look back on that first story arc and I almost cant believe how much of a struggle i found it at first.
Edit: [TheMoeWay](https://learnjapanese.moe/guide) is not an all immersion, no study method like some people seem to be assuming. While reading and listening should be the bulk of learning, a little vocab and grammer study can go a long way.
Anything I’ve ever seen with any data behind it says that immersion / extensive input works best with actual study behind it.
e.g. i+1 or similar.
The issue I have with these type of blanket statements is: 1) pushes the idea that if you struggle its your fault 2) shuts off access to useful resources 3) black and white view of teaching materials vs. native materials / acting like “traditional” learning means zero access to native material.
Yes, to read faster you need to read more. But taking a moment to review a grammar point or vocab you keep seeing and don’t 100% get, or realising that the thing you’re trying to read is a bit hard and maybe you should put it down and try something else is not failure, just recognising your current limits and doing something about it.
Considering that most learners there have a decent level, I would agree.
A bit off-topic but, and I forgot who said it, I heard language learning is like solving one of those 5000 pieces puzzles.
At first it’s very easy and you get quite confident because you can get away with solving the edges and borders.
Then it gets hard as you have a foundation but you are far far from complete. Also known as the intermediate plateau. It’s the longest process by far.
Finally after much trial and error, pieces start to form complete shapes, which accelerates once again your path to fluency. Some stuff that previously didn’t just suddenly starts to make sense.
Mentioning it because it seems like just keep doing stuff is not beneficial, but that’s just because you are stuck in that middle phase. If you persevere, it will eventually click.
It works very well. However, take into account that it’s learners that can dedicate so much time to Japanese, usually are high schoolers, unemployed weebs, or very motivated weebs that can endure 4 hours of content after a day of work and social life. However, once you reach a good level, enjoying media to your heart content is the best way to reach fluency.
This method works and does wonders. However, there are two catches:
1. You need to look things up and do a tremendous amount of SRS, especially in the beginning. “Just read/listen more” only works if you have at least an intermediate level (10-15k words, 2000-2500 kanji), and even then you’d be better continuing to do SRS alongside immersion. 2. You need to spend some time analyzing things you don’t understand. Don’t obsess with every little nuance, but make sure to spend some time refining your understanding of complex grammar, vocabulary usage, expressions, etc.
It’s not a method this is how you learn languages
I agree the method works, for some people. Ultimately any study method given enough hours of consistently studying both new material and practicing material they’ve studied before, a person will eventually learn japanese. The current popular immersion method of immersing to do some practicing of material studied before, and to learn new material from context and lookup if necessary, does this. Adding anki like many people, with both new words and review, also helps do this.
Do I agree with the screenshot? Yes and no. I remember when I started reading I could look up every individual word in a sentence and not get it. After reading X months, I just “got” the grammar better. I also studied grammar by seeing sentences and meanings though in between, so while I didn’t “get” grammar initially when reading, after enough practice reading I eventually did. I didn’t hear the words and phrases well when I started learning, the more I listen the better I understand. I think partly it is because we practice trying to comprehend what we studied when we immerse (so you learn the ている pattern for example in a sentence in anki or looking it up once in a show or in a grammar guide you read, then you read more manga or whatever and run into it over and over until you understand it easily). And partly we run into totally new stuff and figure it out in context (maybe you never studied or looked up あんた but keep seeing it in the Yakuza game and eventually after seeing it 4 times realize it means “you”). These two processes happen whenever we immerse. So yes, if you don’t understand something on day 1, after several months you may well understand quite well. But it’s not totally guaranteed – some things you just don’t pick up well from whatever context you’re seeing it in (the sentences with ている happens to be reallt weird the first several times you see it so you think it means something else, or anta is used weird so you think it’s really formal).
So… if you immerse, over the dozens and hundreds of hours a lot becomes more understandable. But if it’s becoming understandable too slow for your preference, or just keeps totally confusing you, its fine to look it up! It’s fine to look it up immediately the first time you see it if you really want. Some people read and guess many words from context (I tend to do more of this), some people prefer to look up every unknown thing they see, some prefer a mix. What suits a person best depends on what the person likes doing best.
For me, it’s not precisely the method itself but the type of method that rubs me the wrong way.
Unlike lessons or textbooks, it doesn’t lend itself to clear check points, like the aim of the lesson or exercises to practice on. So when you run into problems or get frustrated with your progress, the most common advice you’ll receive is __ more. It’s an unhelpful and meaningless advice. It doesn’t even distinguish between adding more reading time or increasing the proportion of reading time compared to listening, for example.
But a lot of people says it works for them, so good for them! Learning a new language is hard, especially if you’re monolingual, so finding something that works for you is a good thing.
I’d go so far as to say this is the only way to learn for the vast majority of people who achieve fluency. The question is at what stage in your learning journey you immerse yourself completely. Although, hardcore immersion for me means basically working at a Japanese language only company or attending a Japanese language only school. Being forced to use the language for survival/livelihood, essentially. I wouldn’t call just reading a lot of books and watching TV immersion, which is sort of what this sounds like–not that it isn’t a good way to study.
And immersion does work. You start knowing things despite having no memory of ever looking them up or studying them. People around you are saying them constantly and for self preservation you need to understand them and respond. Even if you just pretend to understand the first couple times as you listen intently for context clues. It’s immersive because there are consequences. Self-preservation is a powerful thing.
17 comments
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I agree because even if you don’t absorb everything in a particular text in the moment, you still consciously and subconsciously pick up fundamental bits of info that starts to connect concepts the more you consume. The same way the image on a puzzle starts to form even if at first you’re limited to “gathering the red pieces” and so on.
But I still think the amount of time it takes to start gaining traction in those concepts is directly related to how much of a formal foundation you give yourself before immersing. I’m in the camp that thinks most that try Japanese like this will become discouraged without a solid foundation first. Maybe I would do this for a romance language, but not an asian language.
That sure is *a* method. The most *effective*? Not for everyone, definitely. I’d be frustrated to tears, and would more likely give up than make **any** progress.
“The meaning will come to you” is a nice sentiment, but it is *really* demotivating to know words on their own and **none** of the real meaning – that’s the reason I *gave up* for a while. If that’s happening often enough that you feel you have **no** understanding and **no** progress, no matter how easy the content should be, you need more structure to help. And that’s *fine*.
Sidenote, I don’t understand why some people have so much distaste for TL subs. I’ve heard the argument that some people will charge ahead on content that’s far too advanced for them, on the basis they can read the words and wind up neglecting their listening, but at the same time I’d think it’s a **good** thing to be associating spoken forms with the way they’re written.
In any case I can’t very well go without them because I have issues with hearing… But I think it’s more a matter of learning how to *balance* your input so you’re not accidentally neglecting either skill. I’d rather the takeaway for beginners be learn how to *find* that balance, rather than saying not to use subs (a genuinely useful tool even for the fully-hearing) outright.
I agree cuz that works for me
It worked pretty well for me when I (kinda accidentally) learned English, and has also been working great for Japanese so far, so yes
I agree with it because I tried every other method and immersion was the only one that worked for me. Also everyone else I know who reached a high level in Japanese, and everyone I know who is fluent in English as a non-native did so via immersion.
I’m not really sure that “read more” counts as “hardcore immersion”. It’s hardly AJAAT is it? It’s just reading more. What were you going to do, not read? But generally speaking yes “read more” works. The only way you will get better/faster/etc. at reading Japanese is by actually doing it and it gets easier over time. As others have said, it worked for me. I read a lot and now I can read a lot. Can’t listen to anything though because I focused exclusively on reading. So do be careful of that part.
That website is pretty blunt about it but they’re also right. I could tell my reading speed and comprehension was improving as i progressed from chapter to chapter within the first visual novel i read. Now i look back on that first story arc and I almost cant believe how much of a struggle i found it at first.
Edit: [TheMoeWay](https://learnjapanese.moe/guide) is not an all immersion, no study method like some people seem to be assuming. While reading and listening should be the bulk of learning, a little vocab and grammer study can go a long way.
Anything I’ve ever seen with any data behind it says that immersion / extensive input works best with actual study behind it.
e.g. i+1 or similar.
The issue I have with these type of blanket statements is:
1) pushes the idea that if you struggle its your fault
2) shuts off access to useful resources
3) black and white view of teaching materials vs. native materials / acting like “traditional” learning means zero access to native material.
Yes, to read faster you need to read more. But taking a moment to review a grammar point or vocab you keep seeing and don’t 100% get, or realising that the thing you’re trying to read is a bit hard and maybe you should put it down and try something else is not failure, just recognising your current limits and doing something about it.
Considering that most learners there have a decent level, I would agree.
A bit off-topic but, and I forgot who said it, I heard language learning is like solving one of those 5000 pieces puzzles.
At first it’s very easy and you get quite confident because you can get away with solving the edges and borders.
Then it gets hard as you have a foundation but you are far far from complete. Also known as the intermediate plateau. It’s the longest process by far.
Finally after much trial and error, pieces start to form complete shapes, which accelerates once again your path to fluency. Some stuff that previously didn’t just suddenly starts to make sense.
Mentioning it because it seems like just keep doing stuff is not beneficial, but that’s just because you are stuck in that middle phase. If you persevere, it will eventually click.
It works very well. However, take into account that it’s learners that can dedicate so much time to Japanese, usually are high schoolers, unemployed weebs, or very motivated weebs that can endure 4 hours of content after a day of work and social life.
However, once you reach a good level, enjoying media to your heart content is the best way to reach fluency.
This method works and does wonders. However, there are two catches:
1. You need to look things up and do a tremendous amount of SRS, especially in the beginning. “Just read/listen more” only works if you have at least an intermediate level (10-15k words, 2000-2500 kanji), and even then you’d be better continuing to do SRS alongside immersion.
2. You need to spend some time analyzing things you don’t understand. Don’t obsess with every little nuance, but make sure to spend some time refining your understanding of complex grammar, vocabulary usage, expressions, etc.
It’s not a method this is how you learn languages
I agree the method works, for some people. Ultimately any study method given enough hours of consistently studying both new material and practicing material they’ve studied before, a person will eventually learn japanese. The current popular immersion method of immersing to do some practicing of material studied before, and to learn new material from context and lookup if necessary, does this. Adding anki like many people, with both new words and review, also helps do this.
Do I agree with the screenshot? Yes and no. I remember when I started reading I could look up every individual word in a sentence and not get it. After reading X months, I just “got” the grammar better. I also studied grammar by seeing sentences and meanings though in between, so while I didn’t “get” grammar initially when reading, after enough practice reading I eventually did. I didn’t hear the words and phrases well when I started learning, the more I listen the better I understand. I think partly it is because we practice trying to comprehend what we studied when we immerse (so you learn the ている pattern for example in a sentence in anki or looking it up once in a show or in a grammar guide you read, then you read more manga or whatever and run into it over and over until you understand it easily). And partly we run into totally new stuff and figure it out in context (maybe you never studied or looked up あんた but keep seeing it in the Yakuza game and eventually after seeing it 4 times realize it means “you”). These two processes happen whenever we immerse. So yes, if you don’t understand something on day 1, after several months you may well understand quite well. But it’s not totally guaranteed – some things you just don’t pick up well from whatever context you’re seeing it in (the sentences with ている happens to be reallt weird the first several times you see it so you think it means something else, or anta is used weird so you think it’s really formal).
So… if you immerse, over the dozens and hundreds of hours a lot becomes more understandable. But if it’s becoming understandable too slow for your preference, or just keeps totally confusing you, its fine to look it up! It’s fine to look it up immediately the first time you see it if you really want. Some people read and guess many words from context (I tend to do more of this), some people prefer to look up every unknown thing they see, some prefer a mix. What suits a person best depends on what the person likes doing best.
For me, it’s not precisely the method itself but the type of method that rubs me the wrong way.
Unlike lessons or textbooks, it doesn’t lend itself to clear check points, like the aim of the lesson or exercises to practice on. So when you run into problems or get frustrated with your progress, the most common advice you’ll receive is __ more. It’s an unhelpful and meaningless advice. It doesn’t even distinguish between adding more reading time or increasing the proportion of reading time compared to listening, for example.
But a lot of people says it works for them, so good for them! Learning a new language is hard, especially if you’re monolingual, so finding something that works for you is a good thing.
I’d go so far as to say this is the only way to learn for the vast majority of people who achieve fluency. The question is at what stage in your learning journey you immerse yourself completely. Although, hardcore immersion for me means basically working at a Japanese language only company or attending a Japanese language only school. Being forced to use the language for survival/livelihood, essentially. I wouldn’t call just reading a lot of books and watching TV immersion, which is sort of what this sounds like–not that it isn’t a good way to study.
And immersion does work. You start knowing things despite having no memory of ever looking them up or studying them. People around you are saying them constantly and for self preservation you need to understand them and respond. Even if you just pretend to understand the first couple times as you listen intently for context clues. It’s immersive because there are consequences. Self-preservation is a powerful thing.