What is “appropriate” to talk about between colleagues here, really…

36 comments

1. > Is it me asking about their goals and interest?

   I… might be a little taken aback if a colleague I’m not close asked me that, but I’d write it up to different culture and try to think up an appropriate response… Same for deep talk, it doesn’t come naturally to me with people I haven’t known for more than a few years.

2. You know Japanese people can also dislike and hate foreigners just like the people back in your home country, yeah? This dude might be one of those people.

3. I think the person was simply angry with you for some reason and was venting that anger by purposefully trying to be hurtful. You should keep up the good effort of showing interest in your colleagues—the problem is not you but the other angry individual. Certainly there are cultural differences that we as expats may never fathom, but your colleagues are human in much the same way we all are—it’s nice when others show interest in what we do and in what we think.

   I had a similar encounter not too long ago in a retail store. I had brought my computer in for a possible warranty issue and had fully explained my concerns. The genius behind the counter said words to the effect, “We should speak in English because I cannot understand your Japanese. How long have you lived here? Your Japanese should be much better.” His tone was quite rude and condescending. While I would agree that I bear a definite resemblance to my American father and have a Western name, I speak the language of my Japanese mother proficiently as my first language. This genius was just angry about… who knows …

   Continue to do what you are doing, be nice, be professional, and try not to let it bother you too much. We can’t control what others do and think, but we can control how we react. I would bet your colleagues appreciate your efforts much more than you know. 😉

4. As other people have said, this specific person might have simply been someone who disliked foreigners and decided to take that out on you because you are in the same workplace. Also, while nothing justifies that kind of treatment, it is possible that some people might feel uncomfortable with certain topics that are not usually discussed in Japan (e.g. politics, social issues, etc.) and if you use sarcasm often, there is a very high probability someone took that the wrong way because sarcasm typically does not translate or convey well with most Japanese people, especially those with zero experience abroad or without any foreign friends.

5. If you have to ask, it’s probably best to just keep things strictly professional. Save the world news talk for out-of-office meetups, if ever.

   That said, that dude was rude and a dick. Why did you try and engage him specifically?

6. Are you talking too much? Western people talk at tedium and usually quite louder than Japanese.
   And were you possibly interfering with their work and not reading the room? I’ve never had such problems but I knew someone who essentially lost their job by being a general annoyance in such matters.

   Also, the individual who said that to you sounds incredibly rude and themselves I wouldn’t say are following Japanese etiquette in any degree! Maybe they were just a cunt, and you are expecting your colleagues to open up faster than what is comfortable for them. At any case good luck.

7. Not to excuse the shitty way that guy treated you, but it sounds like you are making a little too much effort to get close to your colleagues. There tends to be pretty clear boundries between work life and personal life in Japan, and from my experience most Japanese people try not to mix the two.

   My advice? Focus on your job while you are at work and find a different outlet for socialization. If bonds with coworkers form naturally, great! If not, don’t sweat it.

8. Right off the bat, the guy you were talking to simply sounds like a racist cunt. You probably shouldn’t pay him any mind. I also must say I admire your efforts.

   I would say, though, to try and steer clear of sarcastic humour while talking to Japanese people. Say it the wrong way in Japanese (and if you have been here for less than a few years, I can almost guarantee you are saying it the wrong way) and people will think you’re serious. Say it the right way in English and people will think you’re serious unless their English is good enough to detect it. Even if you say it the right way it will more often than not come off as rude and abrasive than edgy and humorous. They don’t really find it as “funny” here.

   Also I am not sure if you are talking politics, but I would not say things critical of the Japanese government or the entirety of Japan. Rightly or wrongly, they may take it personally and take it as a foreign “guest” coming into their beloved “home” country and disrespecting it.

   My only other advice is, don’t force yourself. This is out of concern for your own health as well as how you come across to others. The hardest part of trying to be social as an introvert is not the sheer amount of effort; it’s knowing how much effort is appropriate. You don’t have to be social 24/7, just take it easy.

9. > Is it the sarcastic humor?

   Are you British? Because yes, I’ve met quite a few Brits whose idea of sarcastic humor is so dark and morbid, even to me (American) that I find it disturbing to be around. I *realize* it’s completely normal smalltalk for them, but it just grinds away at the mood and ruins any chance of conversation. I think it might be even worse for Japanese, in general, since sarcasm is even less of a thing here.

10. In my office, the talk among my coworkers (everyone Japanese) is always about work. The rare personal talk (interests, news,etc) comes out only after 5pm or on certain days that are on a non-regular schedule, when a more relaxed atmosphere comes out.

    In contrast, in another office there are a few foreigners and they talk non-stop about any topic that pops into their head. Much closer to the work environment I experienced in the US.

11. I wouldn’t take it too much personally. You seem like a good guy and idiots like the one you mention, unfortunately there are many in this world.
    If you’re an introvert but making an effort to communicate, and on top of that in a language and culture that is not your own, this is an impressive achievement : )

12. If you are actually otherwise doing fine, find the person in the office you trust the most and ask them for their advice. Much better than trying to get a bunch of strangers on the internet to psycho-diagnose one person with minimal context.

13. 1) don’t take it personal, the guy seems to have issues

    2) aside from work related topics, let them initiate conversation topics.

    3) avoid questions about family or private life unless you know the person pretty well

    4) find another outlet for your social needs. Work is not the place to fulfill your social needs unless you want to be the office gossip.

    5) haven’t seen others mention it, but be careful who you ask to lunch or drinks. Don’t jump up the reporting line and talk to much to a senior manager unless the invite is coming from them. There may be a clear pecking order in the office and if you ignore this you will draw the ire of others. It’s just a fact of life at many companies and it’s unlikely you will change it.

14. > What is “appropriate” to talk about between colleagues here, really…

    Honestly, in my experience? Mostly safe, inoffensive topics – anything that can be classified as “small talk”. I’m curious as to what kind of “deep talk” topics you tried to bring up with coworkers who (I presume) you don’t know very well. You mentioned news – bringing up something like the typhoon scheduled to come next week (just an example) is going to be fine, but “So what do you think about the war in Ukraine?” (or insert any major world issue that could be even slightly uncomfortable/controversial/political) is not going to get you anywhere. People are in general going to be uncomfortable with you bringing up those kinds of topics.

    As for “goals and interests” – interests are one thing, but I’m not sure about goals. Are you asking coworkers about their goals for the future? Future plans? People tend to be fairly private in the workplace and most are not going to feel comfortable sharing that kind of information. Hell, I even had a Japanese coworker who was uncomfortable when she would go out to lunch with a foreign coworker of ours, because the foreign coworker would always ask her what she did over the weekend, and she found THAT to be too prying… so, I dunno. Don’t expect to have deep conversations. Surface-level, light-hearted conversations are the norm. You can actually go far with those kinds of topics when it comes to building relationships and rapport with your coworkers: asking where the good looking obento they bought is from, telling them about a new restaurant you found nearby, talking about how hot is today, talking about your recent trip back home… hopefully that sheds some light on how workplace conversations are approached.

    Not excusing what your coworker did and said, though. That’s just out of line.

15. It’s interesting that that guy complains about your communication skills but doesn’t have the communication skills necessary to give proper actionable feedback.

    I’d say ignore that person from now on.

    Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary to overly “adapt to local customs”. You do you.

16. Coworkers? We mostly talk about work and little else.

17. all Japanese People around me tend to pay attention and be happy only when you say what they want hear, for example ” Japan is a really good country, safest in the world, and all Japanese people is really kind “, but what happen when you say something different, or when you talk about something that they won’t hear? well you’ll have a bad time, and it’s not because you are foreigner, but because they works in this way.

18. There’s no specific rule about what you should or shouldn’t talk about in your workplace, except that avoiding obviously delicate topics is a good idea. Politics can be surprisingly delicate, much more than in many other countries.

    It sounds like that person was just having a bad day, but if you’re really looking to find out whether you’re overstepping, maybe you could give us some clear examples of what you call “deep topics”. I really have no idea what you mean by that, and actually maybe the most important conversations in the workplace could be considered shallow.

19. I dont know what kind of conversation did you have, but sometimes its okay to not explain your position about X world problem. Most of the time just a “yeah, that was bad/good, I hope it finish/start soon.” and go back to work.

    Something I understood after paying attention how I talk with my spanish friends here and my japanese friends(and coworkers) here is, 90% of serious conversations end with both not going into details and going to a more friendly conversation, while my spanish friends would talk about these things for hours.

20. If you are introvert then i do think you could just ignore them all and only talk to them when needed but ofcourse keeping your respect. In here there is a lot of kind of people, you being so social as a foreigner will trigger one weird or crazy japanese and be angry at you, and in the opposite side as well if your not being social one of your coworkers will be angry at you also and will think you thinking too highly of your self not talking to them etc. just be you and ignore these crazy japanese people. U could see in news that there is a lot of company employee japanese who would molest students in station just because he could not control it anymore and it might be one of your co worker your trying to please too much. There is a lot of crazy japanese so be carefull. I do think if you really are introvert this might be better for you?

21. > Is it the sarcastic humor?

    Sarcasm doesn’t travel. Cut it out.

22. I’m also an introvert myself so I completely understand why you’re so bothered by this. Here’s a trick I found on the internet before…

    >If you have a list of people you care about, is he on that list?
    No? Then whatever he said shouldn’t matter.

    Like this, it becomes easier for me to let it go.

23. Atsui desu ne.

    ​

    I wouldn’t spend too much effort trying to insinuate yourself into the conversations of your coworkers. Especially if you prefer to keep to yourself. If you keep your interactions purely professional it’s easier all around.

24. That guy was really rude, but it makes me wonder if you’ve been doing something from day one that’s annoying to the people around you and he’s the only one who vocalized it clearly (albeit in a very unconstructive way!), since you haven’t been picking up on anyone’s hints to please stop.

    >Recently I am just trying my best to get to know my colleagues by inviting them to lunch and get as involved as I can in their convos

    Inserting yourself into other people’s conversations when they haven’t addressed you specifically is rude anywhere. If that’s what you’re doing, you should stop yesterday lol. Sarcastic humor doesn’t translate culturally so can sound very offensive and weird, probably best to just not. In some cultures light banter and humor is used very early in a relationship to break the ice, in others it’s for after you know someone well and is a sign of (platonic in this case) intimacy, or only allowed from the person in the superior position to initiate, etc. Observe which is going on in your workplace.

    In some workplaces gabbing on about non-work related topics during work hours is kinda frowned upon especially if a superior is in the room. In other workplaces it’s normal. Either way it’s not terribly common to directly ask people such private things like what they did on the weekend, their hobbies, or their personal opinions, especially if you’re the new person and therefore kinda “kohai” position compared to everyone else. I think you need to take a step back and read the room. Instead of focusing so much on yourself and what you’re doing to make good relationships, focus on what others are doing. Observe what your colleagues talk about with whom and when, and talk rather less than they do. Other than short pleasantries about the weather, maybe wait to be addressed and wait to be invited to lunch instead of initiating so much. If you want to be more culturally aware, observe what the vibe is in your workplace and copy that but a bit more toned down than everyone else since you’re new.

    It’s a stereotype but a lot of workplaces don’t socialize the way you’re describing except after hours when drinking together. So they may be annoyed with your drinking party vibes every single day when they’re just trying to get through the workday.

    ETA the more I think about it the odder this idea is

    >I am 100% aware that as gaijin I need to put extra effort to bond

    Why do you assume the “gaijin” has to do extra effort? Usually it’s the other way around, the organization members accept a new member in the way they see fit. If it’s a “dry” sort of workplace they’ll leave you to your own devices and if not, usually someone is assigned to babysit you the first few days, take you to lunch and show you how the hot water maker works and help you set up your Lotus Notes lol etc.

    Again if you want to be culturally aware, observe what others are doing and take cues from them.

    And anyway some workplaces just aren’t the “bonding” sort lol …let people interact on their own terms and observe a bit before wading in.

25. I’m sorry, but you sound really annoying and are trying too hard. You’re not going to get the head pats you’re expecting. I think a lot of Japanese people are quite ok with foreigners staying foreign. This is not your home country. Things don’t work the same way.

    Edit: let me expand now that I have more time. You see, some Japanese people are taught to believe that Japan is special and unique. And that there is no way non Japanese could ever understand or be part of Japanese culture. The more you try to fit in the more resentment you’ll receive. This is just how it is. Try to find more modern and international minded Japanese friends if you can.

26. No matter which country ppl are from, it is important to realise whether that’s a friendly advice or just a random dump of their emotions.

    I mean, you cannot always keep the others mouth shut and as long as you are doing your best then it’s okay!

27. >Is it the sarcastic humor?

    Quite possibly. Often does not translate well, and may be taken literally or just make you seem cynical.

    >Is it me asking about their goals and interest?

    Goals part – quite possibly. Could make the person feel under pressure and judged. Have not heard idle chat on this topic in my several decades here. Might feel like a job interview or performance review.

    I would note that, although not Japanese, I would also find this kind of conversation weird and possibly opening up for judgement (or inferring that I don’t have goals) unless we are close.

    >Is it because they hate deep talk?

    I dont think “they” hate anything. But, pick your audience. Plenty of folks dont want to get into deep conversations and just want to shoot the shit.

    As a general comment, sounds like youre really trying (not that thats bad at all) but it could come across as quite aggressive and certainly ive never seen anyone here be like that (not even day 1 grads out of university). Just mimic what others do.

28. you might want to avoid sarcastic offensive or dark humor unless you know them long enough.

    for coworker just start with weather, job, hobbies. avoid saying something negative such as, “you like anime? you are such an otaku.” kind of remarks. avoid saying other people is boring.

    Japanese people that I know in my workplace, they might start asking if they are curious about you so you dont really to put too much effort.

    in the end you dont really need to put that much effort unless you really desperate to find a friend. some people prefer to keep workplace relationship as professional as possible. And usually they are more open in nomikai or with alcohol involved.

29. I think it’s a case you trying to be “in” with people who may not (yet at least) want you “in”. In my old company I had wildly varying levels of “relationship” depending on the colleague.

    I always felt it was like some sort of underground fight club (without the fighting). Especially if you joined as a mid-career hire you don’t have any 同期 it can be a bit lonely because you’re (at least by default) not in “the group” and thus not invited to any of those after-work/weekend (usually drinking) gatherings.

30. It’s funny, Japanese elitists on the top know that Japan needs foreign talents for their skillsets and labor, but people on the ground never seem to be ready for changes.

31. Don’t poop where you eat, make friends outside of work.

32. I had this problem when I was younger. After a few years I found that people that are overly friendly are seen as brown nosers in my experience. Or gossipers. I was also told to not be too friendly because people that do that are looking for something to gossip about, or use against you at some point. So people tend to avoid them. It is better to not make an effort or trust your coworkers except superficially.

33. Could we have a little bit more background regarding prior interaction with this individual? Was this person hostile from the very beginning or were they nice at first but have now become hostile? Also, how does this individual act toward other people at work? Are they part of your chain of command? Is this person near your rank or somebody way higher up in the company? More details would help give better advice. Furthermore, have you had similar interactions with other people in the office or just this one person?

34. Asking probing questions may be considered rude, and ‘deep talk’ isn’t really normal office conversation anywhere, even in the US, that I know of.

    I’d say most office conversation is 80% work talk, 10% benign local events talk, and 10% weather talk. Deep, probing conversations tend to be nomikai talk, where it can be ‘forgotten’ later on without issue.

    It could be that you’re overstepping some major boundaries with your questions, and there has been talk about that around the office but no one said anything to your face until then. It’s fine to make friends, but office talk tends to be lighter and benign, not soul searching.

35. Unless you’re a teenager or a comedian, drop the sarcastic humor. And asking people about their goals in a Japanese company is…..weird.

    Look, just be you. Nothing lamer than seeing an introvert try to be talkative and outgoing when it goes against their nature. Stick to your lane and be comfortable. It’ll make other people more comfortable to be around you.

    But that guy was definitely a prick.

36. No need to bother when it comes to work here. If it happens naturally sure, but by experience this doesn’t happen. Also, the thing about being the first person to talk, ask how the weather is, how their weekend was, gets old here very quickly. I find it happens outside of work as well. Tough situation, but definitely focus on people outside of work.