I usually follow channels like Matt vs Japan, and it seems like input is really necessary if you don’t want to make unnecessary mistakes when it comes to output, which you should be working on later after getting massive amounts of input. For Japanese, I was wondering when I should start practicing output? I’m currently studying JLPT N3 material, and I live in Japan as an English teacher, so sometimes I have to talk to the Japanese homeroom teachers in Japanese, even though I don’t feel ready to do any output practice. Is it better to delay output until you understand, let’s say, N2 material? Or is there another route to better lay out the transition?
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I think their doctrine is n1+, but if you’re in Japan start practicing man! That’s for people who are in america and have to go out of their way to talk to natives I think
If you live in Japan, it’s a very different situation. Don’t worry about the details of any methods or whatever else. You’re living life. That’s the natural way to learn a language. Get out there and enjoy. Keep studying and life & study will reinforce each other.
It’s like this. You have to sounds like an idiot then a child then keep trying and mimicking expressions and mannerisms until it starts getting natural. There’s no amount of reading or watching anime that’s going to take you there without actually talking and interacting with people. Since you’re here in Japan, just fucking do it don’t worry about what larping youtubers in the states think is better. First step is get rid of the crutches and really try to get as much Japanese interaction as you can. There are a lot of people who speak great Japanese in Japan these days so don’t limit yourself and get stuck in English teaching forever because you didn’t work on your language skills.
> I usually follow channels like Matt vs Japan, and it seems like input is really necessary if you don’t want to make unnecessary mistakes when it comes to output
Obviously if one set some bizarre rule for yourself that one should never make mistakes in doing something when learning it, then the only way to achieve this absurd goal is to not actually practice the thing one does, but practice something tangentially related long enough so that the thing one wants to do eventually is possible.
But how many mistakes with input and misunderstanding sentences were made then? What if one’s rule become that that can’t happen either? Though I suppose there’s far less embarrassment there as no one finds out.
It’s an absurd and inefficient idea to set the goal in learning any skill that one can’t make mistakes while learning the skill. — Imagine if stage actors set the rule for themselves that they cannot make mistakes during rehearsal. Obviously it can’t happen on stage and that is why they rehearse.
I really wish people such as Matt Vs. Japan did not exist. Language teachers everywhere are wrestling with the problem that students are too afraid to say things out of fear of making mistakes while language teachers know that making mistakes is only normal, and necessary while still learning and obviously don’t mind, and Matt undoes all that hard work and convincing with a bizarre mentality and advice that it’s bad to make mistakes as a learner. — Given that apparently this only applies to output and not to input shows that it has nothing to do with effective learning, and everything with saving embarrassment. Perhaps he means not making them in public.
> even though I don’t feel ready to do any output practice
If “feeling ready” is being confident that you won’t make mistakes then not even N1 is enough. I can easily understand N2 material and I certainly make mistakes when outputting, not only that, I make mistakes and misunderstand some things when inputting and so does anyone else who does not speak Japanese at a close to native level.
The other important part about making mistakes publicly is that it opens one up to be corrected for it. Not voicing the mistaken understanding doesn’t mean it’s not somewhere in one’s head; it simply exists in a silent voice in one’s head and no one will point out that it’s wrong. — Open your mouth, make a mistake, become embarrassed by someone pointing out it’s wrong, and improve. Matt isn’t against people making mistakes but against people, or rather himself, voicing their mistaken understandings publicly, so that they become embarrassed by it. All the mistakes continue to exist privately in one’s head.
Don’t worry about making “unnecessary mistakes”. Don’t worry about levels. The whole point of learning the language is communication (I assume). You don’t have to have long, in-depth conversations. You just struggle through it. You will find your fluency will rapidly improve with practice.
I’m studying N3 material and I have a couple of different Japanese tutors, including two just for conversation practice. I’m always super anxious before the conversation classes and then completely euphoric afterwards because *I’ve just managed to communicate for 30 minutes in a different language*. Badly, yes, but I’ve still managed to communicate. You’ve got an amazing opportunity to do this on a daily basis and really lose some of the fear around speaking Japanese and being spoken to in Japanese. Waiting until you reach some kind of arbitrary level won’t make your spoken Japanese any better when you get to that level, it will just make you more anxious because you’ll be expecting more of yourself, and be more disappointed when your Japanese isn’t perfect. Which it won’t be, but haven’t you ever heard the phrase ‘practice makes perfect’? There’s no such thing as unnecessary mistakes is output – the mistakes are a necessary part of learning.
You’ll never be “ready” to output until you practice outputting. I’d say N5 level grammar is more than enough to start having conversations with real humans.
immediately start output and never stop, it’ll never be “ready”. you *make* it ready by practicing and failing and then practicing again.
Matt’s philosophy applies only if you have unlimited time and don’t actually have to use the language in your daily life. Even with that, holding back your output is a very questionable rule. Use the language you’re learning and live your life, dude. Especially if you live IN Japan.
I don’t understand the mentality of not tolerating mistakes, or god forbid, a foreign accent. 😱
I’ve always wondered why people are so scared about making mistakes.
You might be worried about making a fool of yourself by the *way you say something* in Japanese, but how can you be sure that you won’t make a fool of yourself anyway *just because of what you are talking about*, even if your grammar is perfect and your accent sounds native? At least speaking for myself, I know that I can embarrass myself well enough in my native language (if im thinking of it that way) that I am not worried about embarrassing myself in Japanese.
Make no misunderstanding, Matt has superb Japanese skills. But for a long time, I’ve felt like he was the “Good Will Hunting” of Japanese language learning. What’s the point if it’s not to communicate with people and make a genuine connection? How are you supposed to be genuine if you refuse to ever open yourself to the possibility of any ridicule?
I’m also an English teacher in Japan.
Personally I think Matt’s whole method is hogwash, but putting that aside. **You live in Japan. Delaying output is not practical.** Communication is an actual necessity when you live abroad, not something to be delayed for the sake of chasing perfection. Just work on communicating with people.
Matt’s whole method was ment to replicate the experience of living in Japan for people who don’t live in Japan. You live in Japan. Therefore this method is not made for you nor useful for you. Just get out and talk to people. At the end of the day, the way you get better at speaking is by speaking.
Even with high-input, you’re going to make mistakes. Everyone makes them and people are going to try to work with you when you do. The sooner you start working on out-put, the sooner you’ll be able to do so confidently.
Hire a tutor and practice. Make friends and practice.
So you are in Japan and never speak in Japanese because you are not “ready to output practice” ? WHAT ?
I was far from being N3 when I went to Japan first and even without studying while there, my level improved by a lot because I was using it. You will get better by repeating the same things over an over, like introducing yourself, answering the same common questions people ask you, you will improve both understanding and talking. Even if you only use basic grammar and vocabulary, it will get easier and easier to make sentence, it will be more fluid when you speak.
You are in Japan, you have a chance to practice with native speakers who can give you feedback (like if they do not understand what you said, you will know you made a mistake). For me, the sooner you start practicing, the sooner you will be able to have a conversation.
It’s shit like this that makes me question whether the internet and technology have been a curse for Japanese learning rather than a blessing.
It’s impossible to overstate how absolutely batshit *insane* this “don’t output” sounds on its face and how even *more* insane it is when people actually living in Japan buy into it.
Open your mouth and speak, for God’s sake. Yes, you’re going to have trouble. You’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to embarrass yourself sometimes. Tough shit, goes with the territory.
You should be attempting to do output from the moment you learn ‘あ’
Rote memorisation is a terrible method of learning a language. It’s a terrible method of learning *most* things. You learn much faster by outputting and getting feedback, because then you actually get a sense of what mistake you made, where you went wrong, and via negativa, you get closer to being correct.
>it seems like input is really necessary if you don’t want to make unnecessary mistakes
The only unnecessary mistakes are ones you don’t learn from.
Refusing the opportunity to make mistakes, is an unnecessary mistake.
You should practice output, when you live in the country of the language, when you are pre N5! Just do it – speak – engage – make connections! You’ll learn more natural Japanese through conversation.