Hi, guys. I’d like to do this post here, I’m afraid it may sound pretty boring, though. It’s specially for native japanese speakers, but also for whoever knows something or is interested about it.
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I have basically 4 works here to compare:
1. 齋藤 愼爾’s 陸沈 (saitou shinji’s work Rikuchin),
2. noh plays (specially, aoinoue),
3. natsume souseki’s sore kara,
4. ryuunousuke akutagawa’s jigokuhen.
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First of all, I know just “tepid tea” japanese, that is, I’m interested in the language for years, know some, but actually never made a formal course nor learned systematically, so I’m pretty dumb, but also dead curious about it. Specially in recent years. So, I tried many things on the language, and I’d like to discuss some things and make some questions for those who know better.
Ok, here we go.
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\-> I notice that these works actually show a history of japanese language. I got profoundly admired and astonished, because I never thought of a language like that. I mean, my native language has its classics, but I actually never payed attention to them before, and I actually started paying attention after that. I love Steins;Gate, but when I compare its language, and anime language, to any of these works, it’s like a whole different language. And that’s amazing actually! How do you guys feel about it? Is it too weird to read haiku, noh plays, 20th century literature?
For native speakers: Are they commonly read? Do you guys read them at school?
\-> Ok, so one other thing that shocked me. Akutagawa and Souseki’s languages vary WAY TOO MUCH. I mean, reading (never finished though of course lol) sore kara felt more natural, informal. Then Akutagawa’s jigokuhen feels like I’m reading something overly formal, it has a lot of honorific forms and so on, and yet, somehow, it feels like it’s supposed to be informal. Do you guys know why this happen? Is it writing style? Is it keigo? Is it different types of japanese use because of the place they lived? I don’t know how to correctly phrase this feeling I have, but, for instance, aozora may help me. Here:
1. 堀川の大殿様おほとのさまのやうな方は、これまでは固もとより、後の世には恐らく二人とはいらつしやいますまい。噂に聞きますと、あの方の御誕生になる前には、大威徳明王だいゐとくみやうおうの御姿が御母君おんはゝぎみの夢枕にお立ちになつたとか申す事でございますが
\[irasshaimasu mai; kikimasu to; the use ofゝ; de gozaimasu\] This language feels older than it should. Keep in mind I have no idea what is happening over there, I’d need to look into a dictionary for almost every word lol So it may be about a story that happened 100 years before the time Akutagawa wrote or something.
2) 誰か慌あわただしく門前を馳かけて行く足音がした時、代助だいすけの頭の中には、大きな俎下駄まないたげたが空くうから、ぶら下っていた。けれども、
\[that feels almost like today’s language, but slightly more precise, I’d say\].
Could you guys explain me what is this difference? They wrote at the same epoch, so I got really, really curious about it.
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\-> Then we have this. I have rikuchin here with me, I’m in love with this book. But oh boy, I read it in pain lol I mean, I’ll post 2 examples. I love those haiku, but I got deeply confused. Even Shinji’s name is complicated (and beautiful), imagine his words.
血をうすく / 眠るや吾れの / 涅槃変 \[chi wo usuku / nemuru ya ware no / nehan-hen\]
末黒野に / 天降りし瓦礫 / 涅槃像 \[sugurono ni / amori shi gareki / nehan-zou\]
Do you guys understand this? What would you tell me about these haikus? Is this instantly readable for a native speaker or it would need some dictionary?
(In my view, haikus, specially like Saitou Shinji’s, need not only to look for the word, but a lot of words it suggests. So I basically entered in a lot of buddhism terms, and that was deeply interesting too).
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\-> I know I’ve asked too much, but last question. This may sound weirder. It’s optional. But, again, I’m really, really curious. I noticed, specially trying to read Souseki’s “yume juuya”, that the japanese language seemed rooted in buddhism tradition, plus chinese tradition, specially taoism. It’s just a feeling though, of course, but it came from the fact whenever I looked for words in works like the ones I quoted, I soon get into something like “仏教語” or something. I don’t know any name of recent japanese cultural names, except for Natsuishi Ban’ya and Saitou Shinji, but in pop culture, it feels like these roots just vanished. Anime for me sounds like “存在の証明”, “私は誰だ”, “ぶっ倒す”, “殺してやる”. More physical and psychological, while before was more spiritual or something, I don’t know. I feel two expressions, like “ざまみろ” or “自業自得”, which feels buddhistic, but I don’t know. Anyway, do you guys feel that too?
Also, could you guys recommend me works like the equivalent of classic literature, but with contemporary authors? I’d love to know them. Ban’ya I felt weird lol I’ve heard more about the “空飛ぶ法皇”‘s work, and it felt more a formal practice than a real work of haiku, like Saitou Shinji (which is maybe 90 years-old or something). I also heard about Natsui Itsuki, she seems like a great lady, but more of a teacher than of a producer of haiku. Also, I’d like some fiction work, and I know no’ne. Don’t take me bad, I think Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood is an immense work, plus Higurashi Kai and Umineko Chiru, and yet, I’d like to hear about some of the “old school” type of literature, produced more recently. Could you guys recommend me some?
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I’m sorry for the size of the post, and I know it’s probably boring and so on, but I appreciate your patience, and, if I deserve it, your answers. Thanks in advance. よろしくおねがいします
4 comments
Let me know if I did not answer a question; I couldn’t manage to read and figure out the bottom line of what you’re asking when it’s this long.
1. Classical Japanese per se is [stuff like this](https://roudokus.com/Uji/01-001.html). These are frequently hated subject taught at school and tested in entry exams for universities. The ones you listed are not considered “Classic” in a “Classical Japanese” sense.
Now, how I feel reading: pain for the one I linked, for the ones you pasted in the post, not much of anything.
2. I think it’s a matter of learning [the history of the Japanese language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_script_reform).
3. They’re probably not haiku because I don’t see a word that seems to be a 季語, but either way I ~~was~~ never grew meaningful interest in them anyways.
4. Idk, but I feel the problem here is that you’re reading the works of Japanese people of the past, which only shows (at best) a small fraction of the characteristic(s) of the language. Like, I can’t say English is racist by looking at what people wrote a century ago, or something like that.
With that said, the effects of the ideologies you mentioned appear much more in culture and history though.
edit: typo
You’ve given a lot of post to unpack! While not a native, I can at least address a couple points.
First of all, classical japanese is a completely separate beast from modern Japanese and its variants in keigo and colloquial. It has its own grammar rules and structures, and is historically not a “spoken” language by itself. You’ll only see true classical used in storytelling, songs, haiku and other written works.
Another issue we run into with classical japanese is that it is very unstructured, and writing can vary wildly from author to author. This is because writing was reserved for higher class citizens, the samurai, and religious authorities, and a set of rigid rules for writing weren’t set until just recently. Really interesting, but if you take a look at works over a timeline, you can see the transformation of the language from exclusively kanji, to exclusively hiragana, and then the integration of both as it develops into what we see today and the language authors use slowly becomes more recognizable as actual modern Japanese.
The first classic that come to mind is 源氏物語, The Tale of Genji, widely considered Japan’s most iconic work written by a woman (in the 900’s if I remember right). In my university course for Classical Japanese we had a few other books we read and there’s a website I’ll link when I’m home that I used to find books, playwrites, haiku and other old japanese works for a translation project we had to do
I have a question, how close do you think Soeseki’s writing is to modern japanese? I’ve been trying to read his works, it’s been going okay so far since I’m using a site for students with his works and audio and click translations. I wasn’t sure if I needed to study some classical Japanese first to understand it. I’m concerned i could learn grammar from it that isnt correct anymore, instead of just older eords. And if I do need to study some classical japanese then I have no idea where to start.
imabi has an interesting primer on classical japanese
[https://www.imabi.net/classical.htm](https://www.imabi.net/classical.htm)