Hi,
I know that when using kenjougo (humble speech I believe, ukagau, mousu), you can use either polite (ukagaimasu, moushimasu) or plain forms.
I was wondering if this means that politeness is somewhat independent from humbleness. It seems like it’s very possible that if you have an intimate relationship with someone that are you devoted to or who has higher rank than you, but that you know very well, you might opt for plain humble instead of polite humble.
If this is true, it is interesting if this applies to the sonkeigo (honorific) forms though, because when talking about the actions of other people you may always want to use polite speech. But if it is of yourself and your own actions and you’re speaking humbly to someone you’re very close with (i.e., a butler to a child who he raised, an assistant to a boss who they have known for 5 years), you might want to use humble familiar.
4 comments
formality is a different axis than politeness/humbleness
EDIT: See reply below
I feel like humbleness is a different flavor of politeness but not axis
someone correct me if this is a shit take
Yes, when mom talks to her kid about what some erai hito is doing, she can use plain form of a honorific verb.
You do not use polite speech to raise the subject of a sentence; you use it to speak politely to the person you are talking to.
Keep in mind Japanese always retains the ability to talk about how you feel about what you are saying; how you feel about the topic of what you are talking about; and how you feel about the person you are talking to.
Those are three different things.
Politeness is definitely a different dimension from humbleness (although there’s interplay).
However, it seems like you’re equating hierarchy (rank, subservience) to humbleness (and respect). I don’t think that’s correct.
In your first example, it’s more likely that you’d opt for polite form, without the formality and honorifics. (Unbalanced politeness and formality is a sign of a rank difference. Close adherence to formality and shows of respect is a sign of a lack of intimacy.)
What the endings and honorifics literally mean vs. what a specific combination implies in a specific context can be pretty different.
By the way, what you do you mean by “plain humble” and “humble familiar?” Are they different?
です・ます creates “respectful distance,” which is polite
川村さん、週末会いましょうか。
尊敬語 – raises the actions of others; can be used in plain forms
部長は、12時に召し上がります(to or about the section chief)・召し上がる (about the section chief)。
謙譲語 – lowers the actions of the speaker or someone in their group; usually seen in ます-form
土曜日に学校に参ります。I go/come to school (general humble action).
土曜日に先生のところへ伺います。I go to the teacher’s house (humble specifically in respect to the teacher’s position).