Sometimes I search and search and there is no conclusion on the grammaticality of a sentence my student makes. At what point do you just allow it and move on? I’m also really curious how they grade standardized tests like TOEIC and TOEFL, etc. What do they do if graders disagree? I wish there was an exhaustive list of grammar covered in each standardized test.
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First of all, grammar is made up. It’s nonsense. I know that seems surprising but it really is. There are exactly zero people on the planet who follow all of the published prescriptive grammar rules.
Used to start a conference presentation I gave a few times with the story of the two groomarians on the bench. It goes like this:
There are two premarians sitting on a park bench watching people walk past on a little path. The first one leans over to the second one and remarks “I’ve noticed that everyone who’s wearing shorts is also wearing sandals”. The second grammarion is very interested and sure enough a little boy runs by his shorts and sandals. Then a woman walks by in the other direction also wearing shorts and sandals. The two premarians smile.
But then a guy walks past wearing shorts and tennis sneakers. The gremarians frown and mutter “irregular” to themselves. And then a woman walks past in a skirt and sandals. The Fran’s deepen. Finally another little boy runs by with shorts and bare feet.
The second grammarion leans over to the first one and whispers “I’m not sure your rule is holding up” furious, the first gremarion shouts out “they’re doing it wrong!”
So give up on grammar rules. They are nonsense. What’s useful to teach is patterns of usage. Google corpus linguistics and spend an afternoon reading up on how patterns manifest in language. Then when your student asks you why “blonde long hair” sounds strange to native speakers You can talk about how most people would say it “Long blonde hair” and that if you said it the other way you would sound very non-native. That’s as far as you need to go. How would most people say that and how would people react if you said it the way that sounds funny. Give up on prescriptive grammar rules. They’re nonsense.
Without providing an example of the grammar mistake you are referring to there is little point in asking for advice.
Toeic and toefl are multiple choice, there is no disagreeing on responses.
The grammar questions they write are intentionally non-subjective and they don’t use obscure dialects.
If it’s understandable and doesn’t irk the average native speaker, I don’t correct it. If I don’t understand it or if it’s something that would annoy the native speaker to hear, I get them to self-correct it. If it fits the criteria to correct but the students ask questions I don’t know the answer to, I fess up and tell them I’ll be prepared next time to teach it to them. Pretty simple.
Japan really goes hard in on the grammar as math side of things. For test from Japan you basically need to find what kind of prescriptive grammar they are shooting for and try and and get a read on their thought process. This is basically how cram schools do it with surveys of their students every year about questions. (Or they mysteriously somehow get a copy of the test for certain cram schools)
As someone said with TOEIC and TOEFL they have moved normally beyond this nonsense. Most grammar books you find recommended in masters classes are useful. (I wish I remembered mine but forgot the name).
There are some things where it’s just “that’s how native speakers say it” or “that’s not how native speakers say it”. It happens in every language, sometimes there just isn’t a grammatical rule against something but it just doesn’t sound “right”. Often in English it’s because of redundancy. I came across this sentence as an example: “The desire to wear makeup has been continuing for thousands of years.” – There’s nothing technically grammatically wrong with this sentence, but it still “sounds wrong”. In this case I can point to the fact that “has been” means something continues, and continuing also means something continues, so it’s probably the redundancy here that’s making it sound wrong. But sometimes it’s a little harder to pin down the specific reason why something “sounds wrong” just that it does. Sentences like these might get a pass from certain people as being so near-native that it doesn’t make a big difference, but of course it depends on the test and the case, I think. Anyway I don’t know if that helps with your specific question though.
I almost never research grammar rules for marking – spelling sometimes, sure. Sometimes when a student uses a word that’s new for me I need to research it. But grammar rules? No. If it is something an English speaker wouldn’t say, or if it is something inappropriate to the genre being written, I mark it. Otherwise it’s fine.
Teaching gives me enough to do already without wasting my time on prescriptivist nonsense.
Ugh. It’s not only STUPID to require students to memorize prescriptive grammar rules only to pass tests, but it’s even stupider to require teachers to teach them without any guide as to what they think the “correct” answer is.
Probably the best you can do is get a good grammar book like Parrot’s or Swan’s, or even better, Quirk. But let me guess: you don’t get a book budget and would have to buy it yourself. Might be worth the investment. Just don’t leave it at school and let other teachers nick it off you. 🙂
ITT – People who confuse ‘teaching grammar poorly’ with ‘teaching grammar is bad’.
If something is technically grammatically correct but unnatural/not normally said or written by native speakers, I’ll usually give them the points, but also explain to them that it sounds off and give them more native-sounding alternatives.
Depending on the student’s goals, I respond differently. If the student really wants to master grammar and needs it for a test (and I can’t find the answer I’m looking for), I write example sentences using that grammar point and look for patterns. I try to dissect the sentences and come up with a general conclusions (might not be correct, but if it gives me an easy-to-understand answer, then it might help students) and preface that I’m not sure, but _____.
If the student just wants to travel and be social, having perfect grammar doesn’t really matter and I assure them that strong vocabulary and listening skills are far more important.
I am studying for a state certification here in the US and attended some of a teacher’s workshop recently.
My guess is use the direct method (Google it).
Grammar that is functional (interactional) is imperative for writing since there’s less context. In English, we don’t have tones like Thai or Japanese. It’s based on word order (syntax) and we have commas in writing to help decipher meaning. Example:
Let’s eat grandma.
Let’s eat, grandma.
There are different grammar rules for British and American English (and dozens more varieties of English with other rules). Which variety of English are you tasked with teaching? That will determine which rules you expect your learners to apply. British Council identifies differences between US and UK usage –
https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/b1-b2-grammar/british-english-and-american-english
Look up Stack Exchange – English Language and Usage. It’s not an authoritative source, but it does indicate usage that is currently accepted.
You’re putting far more thought into it than the test graders. I’ve been involved in grading and training graders for two different standardized tests. The graders are often paid per essay they grade or per batch. I would call grading closer to skimming than an in depth read of the essay.
To everyone arguing that grammar isn’t real or to ignore prescriptive grammar – you are really doing a disservice to your students. I get it. I’m a linguist with an advanced degree. When I’m in ‘linguist’ mode I am 100% a descriptivist. Even when I’m in ‘teacher’ mode, I lean descriptivist. HOWEVER, most of the people grading your students will not have a background in linguistics and most will choose to die on the hill of strict prescriptive grammar. If you convince your students that it is okay to ignore prescriptive grammar rules in formal or academic writing, you could do real damage to their future.