Probably overthinking this, but how do you feel about people not using “san” with foreigner names in workplace but they use them with Japanese names. Do you feel offended? To a certain level discriminated against?
This is blatant discrimination, time to lawyer up, gaijins unite. /s
I don’t mind, no I don’t feel offended nor discriminated. I think you’re overthinking this. Also, I call other foreigners in my workplace by their first names and the locals with lastname-san.
In English or Japanese?
In English, the reason to continue to use -san with Japanese people is that they aren’t going to switch to Mr. and they aren’t just going to call someone by just their surname. I get a mix of both, but I prefer it not being used.
If they’re leaving it off for foreigners while speaking Japanese, that’s a little weird, and I’ve never had that happen.
Used to be bothered by it a bit, now don’t care at all. It’s just a convention and an expectation, not an actual sign of ‘respect’ in most cases.
It’s disrespectful unless you tell them it isn’t necessary.
Ignore the stupid sarcastic comments. A perfectly decent question IMO. I thought it was weird for a little while but when I noticed the 先輩s were calling the 後輩s nickname and だれだれくん I figured it’s just the same as that. It’s not necessarily to do with being a foreigner, just some people don’t have very good manners and others feel they can call you by your name because they are your superiors. Others of course may be doing it because your a foreigner. Case by case I guess.
In any case, it doesn’t bother me because it’s my name and why should I be offended by someone just saying my name?
If I notice they don’t use it with me, I won’t use it with them. I don’t get offended or insulted by it, but I know they will 👹
You don’t want to be the kind of person that is bothered by this.
If it bothers you there’s nothing wrong with asking them to use san with your name.
Not at all. Some people still use san for my name, which actually feels somewhat weirder to hear than without it. But still I don’t mind either way.
On other hand, my Japanese boss started using “chan” for a foreigner girl, and all my coworkers just went along and started using “chan” as well for her. My japanese wife heard me calling her chan once and she got mad, then I had to explain but still thinks my boss is weird lol
My name is Jonathan so they do it automatically because it ends in -san anyway. 😅
Dude, after being alive for some time, I’ve realized that if something’s bothering me I’ll feel better by simply asking the person why.
It doesn’t have to be aggressive or confrontational. If you can assume the best of people and ask why they drop it for you, they may give you a great answer or not. Either way, you’ll know and learn something or can communicate your preference.
Good luck out there 🙂
I have never minded. I encourage everyone to use my given name rather than family name and anyone using the family name adds san. If we are speaking English, it is most natural if they don’t add anything to my given name.
That said, I once had to deal with complaints from half a department about how their new manager was addressing them all. He called all the men -san and all the women -chan which they felt was infantilalizing and disrespectful of their roles and abilities. He just meant to be friendly. (Everyone in the team was Japanese, for the record).
Since then I have noticed when a senior guy was referring to me as naninani-chan to others and gently asked that he not do so in future.
<<Edit to correct garbled mistypes/autocorrects. And to add: >>
I find myself in awkward situations when in a small group of people with whom I usually speak different languages, and am used to addressing them differently based on that. Kaori vs. Tanaka-san, etc. In the group we’ll be speaking one language and I will try to remember to add san to Kaori for consistency.
I’ve had that in one of my workplaces where non-Asian foreigners would get just the name without the -san, whereas Japanese and Asian employees would get -san. Didn’t bother me at first, until I had a kohai refer to me without -san and in a somewhat condescending manner. I got annoyed and whenever the kohai said something to me, I’d just add “san” and stare at them until they got the hint. The management of the company was pretty racist too so it didn’t add to the overall atmosphere.
In general, I would say it depends on your workplace, right now it wouldn’t bother me if someone just called me by my name as long as they are respectful. But I’d rather either call everyone -san and have it added to my name or drop the -san for myself and everyone else.
If someone drops the san, respond with Kun or Chan so they recognise their failure to show the obligatory respect and immediately start apologising profusely. Make sure to measure their bows and advise them on any necessary adjustments. /s
Teaching Name Usage to Japanese People.
A) May I have your name please?
B) I’m Suzukitarou
A) I’m sorry, could you just tell me your first name?
B) Oh, I’m Suzuki.
A) Wait, is Suzuki your first name or family name?
B) Oh, family name.
A) I see. OK, well I’m John Smith. You can call me John, or Mr Smith if you prefer.
B) OK, I understand. You can call me Suzuki.
A) Actually in English it’s quite rude to call someone by just their family name, we should use “Mr” or use the first name.
B) OK, you can call me Mr Tarou, I don’t mind.
A) Actually in English we don’t use “Mr /Mrs” with first names, only family names.
B) Oh, OK, just Tarou is OK.
A) Great thank you.
B) So what is today’s lesson about John-teacher?
A) You don’t need to add “teacher” to my name, just call me John, it’s fine.
B) OK…Mr John.
A) Again, remember we don’t use “Mr /Mrs” with first names.
B) Sorry Smith.
A) Again, sorry to correct you but it’s rude to call someone only by the their family name.
B) Oh, I understand, Mr…Smith?
A) That’s right! You got it!
*bell chimes*
A) See you next week.
They’ve been brainwashed at work that all foreigners use first-name, and that is how it works. Sort of the American style. Coming from areas of Europe where you’d use surnames still, doesn’t matter. I explained that, but everyone just uses first-name with me and other foreigners.
I don’t care at all, it is amusing that they go out of their way to be helpful and use “the foreign system” for us foreigners, but in fact, it isn’t correct. But it makes them feel good about how inclusive they are.
It doesn’t bother me but I respond in kind. If we’re skipping we’re skipping. I’m happy not to use any of that stuff.
If I am having a conversation in Japanese and somebody, who I am not familiar or friendly enough with 呼び捨てs me, it is inappropriate. That shit would not fly between two Japanese people, so it shouldn’t fly with a foreigner fluent in Japanese.
I am happy for colleagues who I am close with to drop the honorific. The ironic thing is, the colleagues I like and respect are the ones who call me with “san”.
You’re not overthinking this, and feeling discriminated against is not unexpected, but it’s a difficult problem to solve without explaining it to every individual who does this.
The way I reconciled this with myself is that the people dropping “san” – while effectively being disrespectful from an objective point-of-view based on interactions between two natives – are most likely not doing it to disrespect you, but they are consciously going out of their way to appear friendly and accommodate you.
If it’s a conversation in English then whatever.
If there were a foreigner at my workplace, I would just stick with how he/she were introduced in the beginning. I had foreign colleagues at my former workplace, but we used nick names there (as many IT companies do nowadays) so we called anyone NICKNAME-san.
I thought people were calling me Sam for ages
I speak fluent Japanese and I am in a manager position. So yobisute is a no-go .
I just saw a Cantonese woman explain that the sound “son/san” at the end of a name sounds like “God” in Cantonese.
So for example: Madison translates to “God of Wiping Floor.”
Jason is the “God of Dick.”
Not adding “-san” to your name removes your Cantonese godhood! Don’t let them do that to you.
Most of the comments here suck.
I agree with OP and think it’s annoying/rude when Japanese people don’t use a suffix for you but expect it from you. At my first job ever, I called my coworker on it and he got super pissed and didn’t let it go up to the day I left. It’s Japan, why do Japan rules apply to white/black/non-Asian foreigners only when Japanese people feel like it?
If I stopped using ‘san’ for everyone, they’d get super pissed at me. What a double-standard in a country that expects you to follow the suffix rules but doesn’t reciprocate…Actually I suppose that’s Japan in a nutshell.
If you are speaking in Japanese it is unprofessional of them. Yes, most of the time they are doing it because someone long ago decided that having a bunch of new college graduates from overseas teach about foreign customs and manners was the way to go and so they do genuinely think they are doing something helpful but the fact remains that they are incorrect about that and they aren’t succeeding in their attempt to treat you in a way that you appreciate. If they are decent people, they will want to know that yobisute-ing foreign people they work with doesn’t come off well.
Ignore until they use the -san. It’s rude on the workplace
Up to you. I like people to use it, a sign of equality and respect in my book but some people don’t feel it’s necessary for their situation. If it bothers you, ask them to address you as such.
If they call me san, I’m going to have to start working like a san. Rather keep my foreigner work style.
I think I count on one hand the times that they dropped honorifics for me or foreign colleagues and those times were usually because they had been speaking in English right before or something similar. Unless you specifically tell them not to use any honorifics, you’re pretty close, or it’s a casual setting, I’d consider it to be rude personally.
That said, there’s this university jazz club at a university I go to from time to time to teach a little and to jam, and one of the kids said “あ、fosekoや！” I don’t really care because he’s a goofball anyway and I’d rather have things relaxed there anyway, but he got seriously told off by the club manager.
I think it also depends on how long you’ve been here and how well you’ve integrated into the culture though. I always told people the first few years not to use any honorifics or to drop the keigo, but the more you get used to living here and converse proficiently in Japanese, you get more sensitive to these situations (at least I did). Some people I knew before would always call me キミ, but it did start bothering me more and more over the years, which people usually pick up and then stop doing if they’re socially aware enough.
I think it is rude and think less of people that called me -san or nothing when calling people of equivalent status -sensei.
But it is context-specific (an old boss of mine used to call me -san but he would call other teachers -san too and he also made my working life fun and interesting so absolutely not a problem).
I would occasionally do it back to people I didn’t like and watch them squirm as it bothered them but they couldn’t really complain because they did it to me first. Petty, I know.
If this is English speaking scenario then OP is wack.
If this is Japanese speaking scenario then OP’s company is wack.
I’ve grown quite tired of the “-san” when speaking English. Totally unnecessary.
However, when used in Japanese, I prefer to be called by my family name + -san as it’s done for the locals.
I worked in a Japanese firm. Several years ago.
In directories even, you’d see Japanese as “Mr. Taro Suzuki” or “Mr. Suzuki”, even “Ms. Akiko Suzuki” or “Ms. Suzuki” but gaijin would simply be “John Bull”. Even other ethnicities including “John Tanaka”. Go figure.
When Japanese firms started manufacturing operations in the US (well 20 years after Kikkoman first set up in Wisconsin that is ) , one of the things they had to learn was that there was a generation of African Americans whom as children grew up in an environment whereby only white adult men were addressed as “Mr.” while black adult men were denied that courtesy. So, that was something they needed to learn quickly.
(Of course, when the first Japanese auto manufacturer HONDA set up their first plant, they consulted law firms like Rose Mudge et al on how they might avoid having to hire “too many” non-whites – in particular, African Americans. They were told that many of the regulatory standards at the time relied up the racial demographics of the local vicinity. Guided by this counsel, HONDA specifically chose Marysville, OH as its first plant location – which had a very low percentage of blacks (versus a larger urban are like Columbus, OH which had a much higher percentage of non-whites). )
33 comments
This is blatant discrimination, time to lawyer up, gaijins unite. /s
I don’t mind, no I don’t feel offended nor discriminated. I think you’re overthinking this. Also, I call other foreigners in my workplace by their first names and the locals with lastname-san.
In English or Japanese?
In English, the reason to continue to use -san with Japanese people is that they aren’t going to switch to Mr. and they aren’t just going to call someone by just their surname. I get a mix of both, but I prefer it not being used.
If they’re leaving it off for foreigners while speaking Japanese, that’s a little weird, and I’ve never had that happen.
Used to be bothered by it a bit, now don’t care at all. It’s just a convention and an expectation, not an actual sign of ‘respect’ in most cases.
It’s disrespectful unless you tell them it isn’t necessary.
Ignore the stupid sarcastic comments. A perfectly decent question IMO. I thought it was weird for a little while but when I noticed the 先輩s were calling the 後輩s nickname and だれだれくん I figured it’s just the same as that. It’s not necessarily to do with being a foreigner, just some people don’t have very good manners and others feel they can call you by your name because they are your superiors. Others of course may be doing it because your a foreigner. Case by case I guess.
In any case, it doesn’t bother me because it’s my name and why should I be offended by someone just saying my name?
If I notice they don’t use it with me, I won’t use it with them. I don’t get offended or insulted by it, but I know they will 👹
You don’t want to be the kind of person that is bothered by this.
If it bothers you there’s nothing wrong with asking them to use san with your name.
Not at all. Some people still use san for my name, which actually feels somewhat weirder to hear than without it. But still I don’t mind either way.
On other hand, my Japanese boss started using “chan” for a foreigner girl, and all my coworkers just went along and started using “chan” as well for her. My japanese wife heard me calling her chan once and she got mad, then I had to explain but still thinks my boss is weird lol
My name is Jonathan so they do it automatically because it ends in -san anyway. 😅
Dude, after being alive for some time, I’ve realized that if something’s bothering me I’ll feel better by simply asking the person why.
It doesn’t have to be aggressive or confrontational. If you can assume the best of people and ask why they drop it for you, they may give you a great answer or not. Either way, you’ll know and learn something or can communicate your preference.
Good luck out there 🙂
I have never minded. I encourage everyone to use my given name rather than family name and anyone using the family name adds san. If we are speaking English, it is most natural if they don’t add anything to my given name.
That said, I once had to deal with complaints from half a department about how their new manager was addressing them all. He called all the men -san and all the women -chan which they felt was infantilalizing and disrespectful of their roles and abilities. He just meant to be friendly. (Everyone in the team was Japanese, for the record).
Since then I have noticed when a senior guy was referring to me as naninani-chan to others and gently asked that he not do so in future.
<<Edit to correct garbled mistypes/autocorrects.
And to add: >>
I find myself in awkward situations when in a small group of people with whom I usually speak different languages, and am used to addressing them differently based on that. Kaori vs. Tanaka-san, etc. In the group we’ll be speaking one language and I will try to remember to add san to Kaori for consistency.
I’ve had that in one of my workplaces where non-Asian foreigners would get just the name without the -san, whereas Japanese and Asian employees would get -san. Didn’t bother me at first, until I had a kohai refer to me without -san and in a somewhat condescending manner. I got annoyed and whenever the kohai said something to me, I’d just add “san” and stare at them until they got the hint. The management of the company was pretty racist too so it didn’t add to the overall atmosphere.
In general, I would say it depends on your workplace, right now it wouldn’t bother me if someone just called me by my name as long as they are respectful. But I’d rather either call everyone -san and have it added to my name or drop the -san for myself and everyone else.
If someone drops the san, respond with Kun or Chan so they recognise their failure to show the obligatory respect and immediately start apologising profusely. Make sure to measure their bows and advise them on any necessary adjustments. /s
Teaching Name Usage to Japanese People.
A) May I have your name please?
B) I’m Suzukitarou
A) I’m sorry, could you just tell me your first name?
B) Oh, I’m Suzuki.
A) Wait, is Suzuki your first name or family name?
B) Oh, family name.
A) I see. OK, well I’m John Smith. You can call me John, or Mr Smith if you prefer.
B) OK, I understand. You can call me Suzuki.
A) Actually in English it’s quite rude to call someone by just their family name, we should use “Mr” or use the first name.
B) OK, you can call me Mr Tarou, I don’t mind.
A) Actually in English we don’t use “Mr /Mrs” with first names, only family names.
B) Oh, OK, just Tarou is OK.
A) Great thank you.
B) So what is today’s lesson about John-teacher?
A) You don’t need to add “teacher” to my name, just call me John, it’s fine.
B) OK…Mr John.
A) Again, remember we don’t use “Mr /Mrs” with first names.
B) Sorry Smith.
A) Again, sorry to correct you but it’s rude to call someone only by the their family name.
B) Oh, I understand, Mr…Smith?
A) That’s right! You got it!
*bell chimes*
A) See you next week.
They’ve been brainwashed at work that all foreigners use first-name, and that is how it works. Sort of the American style. Coming from areas of Europe where you’d use surnames still, doesn’t matter. I explained that, but everyone just uses first-name with me and other foreigners.
I don’t care at all, it is amusing that they go out of their way to be helpful and use “the foreign system” for us foreigners, but in fact, it isn’t correct. But it makes them feel good about how inclusive they are.
It doesn’t bother me but I respond in kind. If we’re skipping we’re skipping. I’m happy not to use any of that stuff.
If I am having a conversation in Japanese and somebody, who I am not familiar or friendly enough with 呼び捨てs me, it is inappropriate. That shit would not fly between two Japanese people, so it shouldn’t fly with a foreigner fluent in Japanese.
I am happy for colleagues who I am close with to drop the honorific. The ironic thing is, the colleagues I like and respect are the ones who call me with “san”.
You’re not overthinking this, and feeling discriminated against is not unexpected, but it’s a difficult problem to solve without explaining it to every individual who does this.
The way I reconciled this with myself is that the people dropping “san” – while effectively being disrespectful from an objective point-of-view based on interactions between two natives – are most likely not doing it to disrespect you, but they are consciously going out of their way to appear friendly and accommodate you.
If it’s a conversation in English then whatever.
If there were a foreigner at my workplace, I would just stick with how he/she were introduced in the beginning. I had foreign colleagues at my former workplace, but we used nick names there (as many IT companies do nowadays) so we called anyone NICKNAME-san.
I thought people were calling me Sam for ages
I speak fluent Japanese and I am in a manager position. So yobisute is a no-go .
I just saw a Cantonese woman explain that the sound “son/san” at the end of a name sounds like “God” in Cantonese.
So for example: Madison translates to “God of Wiping Floor.”
Jason is the “God of Dick.”
Not adding “-san” to your name removes your Cantonese godhood! Don’t let them do that to you.
Most of the comments here suck.
I agree with OP and think it’s annoying/rude when Japanese people don’t use a suffix for you but expect it from you. At my first job ever, I called my coworker on it and he got super pissed and didn’t let it go up to the day I left. It’s Japan, why do Japan rules apply to white/black/non-Asian foreigners only when Japanese people feel like it?
If I stopped using ‘san’ for everyone, they’d get super pissed at me. What a double-standard in a country that expects you to follow the suffix rules but doesn’t reciprocate…Actually I suppose that’s Japan in a nutshell.
If you are speaking in Japanese it is unprofessional of them. Yes, most of the time they are doing it because someone long ago decided that having a bunch of new college graduates from overseas teach about foreign customs and manners was the way to go and so they do genuinely think they are doing something helpful but the fact remains that they are incorrect about that and they aren’t succeeding in their attempt to treat you in a way that you appreciate. If they are decent people, they will want to know that yobisute-ing foreign people they work with doesn’t come off well.
Ignore until they use the -san.
It’s rude on the workplace
Up to you. I like people to use it, a sign of equality and respect in my book but some people don’t feel it’s necessary for their situation. If it bothers you, ask them to address you as such.
If they call me san, I’m going to have to start working like a san. Rather keep my foreigner work style.
I think I count on one hand the times that they dropped honorifics for me or foreign colleagues and those times were usually because they had been speaking in English right before or something similar. Unless you specifically tell them not to use any honorifics, you’re pretty close, or it’s a casual setting, I’d consider it to be rude personally.
That said, there’s this university jazz club at a university I go to from time to time to teach a little and to jam, and one of the kids said “あ、fosekoや！” I don’t really care because he’s a goofball anyway and I’d rather have things relaxed there anyway, but he got seriously told off by the club manager.
I think it also depends on how long you’ve been here and how well you’ve integrated into the culture though. I always told people the first few years not to use any honorifics or to drop the keigo, but the more you get used to living here and converse proficiently in Japanese, you get more sensitive to these situations (at least I did). Some people I knew before would always call me キミ, but it did start bothering me more and more over the years, which people usually pick up and then stop doing if they’re socially aware enough.
I think it is rude and think less of people that called me -san or nothing when calling people of equivalent status -sensei.
But it is context-specific (an old boss of mine used to call me -san but he would call other teachers -san too and he also made my working life fun and interesting so absolutely not a problem).
I would occasionally do it back to people I didn’t like and watch them squirm as it bothered them but they couldn’t really complain because they did it to me first. Petty, I know.
If this is English speaking scenario then OP is wack.
If this is Japanese speaking scenario then OP’s company is wack.
I’ve grown quite tired of the “-san” when speaking English. Totally unnecessary.
However, when used in Japanese, I prefer to be called by my family name + -san as it’s done for the locals.
I worked in a Japanese firm. Several years ago.
In directories even, you’d see Japanese as “Mr. Taro Suzuki” or “Mr. Suzuki”, even “Ms. Akiko Suzuki” or “Ms. Suzuki” but gaijin would simply be “John Bull”. Even other ethnicities including “John Tanaka”. Go figure.
When Japanese firms started manufacturing operations in the US (well 20 years after Kikkoman first set up in Wisconsin that is ) , one of the things they had to learn was that there was a generation of African Americans whom as children grew up in an environment whereby only white adult men were addressed as “Mr.” while black adult men were denied that courtesy. So, that was something they needed to learn quickly.
(Of course, when the first Japanese auto manufacturer HONDA set up their first plant, they consulted law firms like Rose Mudge et al on how they might avoid having to hire “too many” non-whites – in particular, African Americans. They were told that many of the regulatory standards at the time relied up the racial demographics of the local vicinity. Guided by this counsel, HONDA specifically chose Marysville, OH as its first plant location – which had a very low percentage of blacks (versus a larger urban are like Columbus, OH which had a much higher percentage of non-whites). )