I’ve experimented with the japanese R more times than I can count and I’ve reproduced it every way I’ve heard it, and it’s never been exactly the same sound. I’m rewatching Naruto so for example, the word Rasengan always has a VERY distinct L sound “Lasengan” whereas “Orochimaru” always uses a very distinct D sound, you never ever hear the same r sound from rasengan in orochimaru, there’s never a chance to misconstrue Orochimaru as Olochimalu.
What’s the actual deal here? If I’m correct about them being 2 different sounds, when is either appropriate or is it just a cultural habit?
You need to cup the roof of your mouth with your tongue for an air pocket to make any kind of D sound, even with the rolling R you hear in spanish, it’s that little pop of air that produces the D sound, the L sound is only possible without that air pocket, and there really is no between, no variation of that popping D can produce an L sound, you can append the 2 together but there’s no true between sound by nature of how they are made. If I’m wrong correct me please.
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ビール was the word that I first heard the blend of R, D, and L myself.
I did have a Japanese teacher that pretty much exclusively pronounced it as L, but I think that was more just to simplify it for students as everyone had zero Japanese experience going into that class.
This video is a bit cringe, but it also did a good job of going through the Japanese R sound and pronunciation for me.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2wzUuGm7yw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2wzUuGm7yw)
I’d like to add a phonology perspective. Basically the Japanese R is what’s called an alveolar tap. Phonemes in languages are defined primarily by two things: the place in your mouth the articulation is made and the manner in which it is made. (Voicing also sometimes plays a role but it’s not as relevant in this case)
D, L, and the Japanese R (and English R as well) are all made with the same place of articulation, with the tongue at the alveolar ridge right behind your top front teeth. Their only difference is the manner in which they’re made.
D is a stop/plosive. Phonemes such as T P and K are too. Fairly self-explanatory.
Japanese R is a tap, which is similar but not the same as a stop. Essentially it is produced with a single contraction of the muscles so that the tongue makes very brief contact with the roof of your mouth.
L is a lateral approximant, meaning it’s produced by directing the airflow over the sides of the tongue as opposed to down the middle.
Obviously native Japanese speakers will be familiar with the sound of an alveolar tap. For English speakers who are not familiar with it though, it’s natural to hear an alveolar stop or lateral approximant instead, since those are similar sounds that we already expect to hear in language. The Japanese R is indeed its own distinct phoneme however.
For one, it is never pronounced as a D (a voiced alveolar plosive, [d] in IPA), as that sound is a different phoneme in Japanese (the initial sound in だでど). A standard realization is an alveolar tap [ɾ], which may sound similar to [d] if your language doesn’t have the sound (the tongue movement is very similar, but you only stop the air for a very short moment without ever building any pressure).
What happens is that Japanese has only one so called “liquid consonant”, where most variants of English have two (R and L) and Spanish has four. Consequently, many Japanese speakers do not distinguish between [ɾ] and [l], just like you seem to not distinguish between [d] and [ɾ]. Consequently, the actual realization or the R phoneme in Japanese can seem to be all over the place to European ears, even when produced by a single speaker. It can even be realized as the R rolled with the tip of the tounge [r], but that usually signifies that the speaker is angry.
Huh, I have never heard it as a D in Orochimaru.
But yeah mostly I hear it as a mixed sound. It’s basically it’s own sound.
if you listen to recordings of the word 便利 I think it’s easy to hear there for some reason
I really don’t think the sound is any different from the sound we have in Spanish. For example take a look at the word [perilla.](https://voca.ro/1m1EUmBQ1RI6)
To me it sounds the same as the way we make that sound in Japanese such as 料理 (that I recorded in that link). Now, if my pronunciation of 料理 is not correct someone please tell me). But as far as my ears can tell, the L/D sound of Japanese is identical to the R (not to be confused with the RR as in the word carro) sound that we have in Spanish.
I understand what you mean.
When we pronounce ら in “らせんがん”, many of us touch front teeth(or teeth ridge)with our tongues, however, we don’t touch front teeth with our tongues when we pronounce ろ in “おろちまる”.
That’s why the ら sound in the word “らせんがん” sounds a little bit like the L sound in English.
ら行 sounds at beginning of a word and the ones in the middle of a word are different.
り is an exception.