on numerous occasions, i’ve seen people preach that you should only practice speaking with native speakers and generally, i can account for that. you can look out for pitch, find out what’s natural and unnatural to say and keep learning new words. generally, ive seen people advise AGAINST talking to people who aren’t native speakers, but i’ve been wondering if it’s really that bad? i mean that in the sense that, it is still a form of practice and can improve your ‘fluency’ in speaking too. sure you may make mistakes that will go unnoticed, but you’ll also be able to talk with less stuttering etc and be able to correct those mistakes later on as well
with that being said, my question is, why is it so bad and advised against, other than the aforementioned points?
or maybe is it that i am not stressing the points mentioned enough?
17 comments
Personally i practice with nonnatives and natives. I dont get to practice with japanese people enough so i practice where i can. For the most part we correct each other as needed (not super often)
A philosophical point: language is a tool for communication and why would that be limited to communicating with native speakers?
And if you learn Japanese outside of Japan in a classroom the benefits of interacting with your classmates far outweigh the possible risk of learning something incorrect from them. There are also language instructors who aren’t native speakers who teach the language very well especially since they often understand the problems faced by foreign learners better than native speaker instructors.
But of course having contact with native speakers (also outside of the classroom, as even a native speaker instructor is not necessarily representative, and there is often a generation gap in a college setting) is important because it is not just about the language but also about the culture and what not. So I try to make sure my students (learning Japanese outside of Japan) have the opportunity to interact with native speakers, be it in tutorials taught by exchange students or by organizing events to find language partners.
Mistakes being unnoticed is one thing, but at the very least, *you’re doing output*. If you’re in need to practice output, just doing it is one of the most important thing you should be doing, so that’s a plus. This is exactly why my speaking skills are nowhere where it used to be and severely lagging behind the already-deteriorated reading, listening, and writing skills.
Anyways, just don’t expect your partner to be accurate or anything, and if your partner is making mistakes at the level of “could have/could of” and “then/than”, find someone else.
If you have no native speaker to talk to, and you want to improve your speaking skills, then practicing with non-natives is certainly better than doing nothing, and anyone that says otherwise has no idea what they’re talking about.
I just love speaking in Japanese, so I was always keen to even with other foreigners. Now I have to do that regularly for work, so I’m glad I never felt it was awkward or weird
It’s not that conversing with native speakers is inherently bad. It’s more of an opportunity cost thing, especially when the gaijin bubble comes to play.
When learning a language, there is basically no advantage to speaking to a non-native speaker over a native speaker. Especially non-fluent, as is oft the case with Japanese.
If you have a chance to speak with an abundance of native speakers (a la in the case of studying in Japan), and instead spend that time *not* doing that, that’s opportunity cost.
In the case of stuff like studying in Japan, squandering the chance to talk with the abundance of natives around you, in favour of the minority of foreigners that you often need to expressly seek out, is a waste of an opportunity many other learners would kill to have.
Doing something is always better than doing nothing
I never speak Japanese with non natives, even if the person is fluent in Japanese. Call it a complex, but it just feels strange and not authentic to me and I refuse to do it. I am in a situation, I just switch back to English. Another thing I don’t like is speaking to Japanese/American bilinguals and Japanese people with native level English
There is a certain subset of Japanese language learners that are terrified of making mistakes, especially ones that go uncorrected. If you practice your Japanese with a non-native speaker you’re far more likely to make those mistakes. That’s why some people will suggest you avoid doing it.
I would argue that the benefits of practicing your output far outweigh the downside of any potential mistakes you’ll make.
I would always recommend to speak to natives better, however, if u don’t have the chance speaking with a non native person doesn’t hurt that much 🙂
No
I mean… let’s remember what learning a new language is all about. If we’re learning Japanese to not make mistakes… oof we better think twice about our hobbies.
I’m learning Japanese to speak with other people. To engage in new experiences. To read material. To make mistakes.
Beyond that, speaking and reading Japanese like we intend to requires so much language exposure that it is unlikely that our understanding of the language would be meaningfully corrupted by interacting with non-natives beyond a few instances.
When you compare these rare instances to the frequency to which people give up and quit Japanese all together… speaking with non-natives is a no-brainer.
I’ve heard from someone reliable (probably some interview involving Krashen) that the brain — even babies — understands the difference between native speech and non-native speech and separates it automatically so it does not affect overall fluency.
I treat language as means of communication and whom I am communicating with I don’t discriminate on 🙂
That being said, I get plenty of exposure to native speakers so it may be different for someone who can’t.
Not much, except for learning correct pitch accent, which you won’t acquire *only* by speaking with native speakers — it needs additional study and focus. Speaking is sort of like learning a musical instrument. Any practice speaking helps, even if it’s by yourself. Listening for mistakes non-native speakers make, and thinking how you would say it correctly, is also valuable and outweighs the risks of developing a few small bad habits.
Pretty simple opinion on this: Practice with whomever you like to practice, don’t let anyone’s preconceptions rob you of potential beneficial experiences.
Can you pick up “wrong stuff” when talking Japanese with another learner? Surely you can. You will do so watching Anime as well however. The good thing if you converse with another learner: maybe you come across stuff that seems weird / wrong and check it out? Stuff you realize will massively help you internalize that something actually is / has been a mistake and remembering it will be rather easy.
Then there is another point. There are quiet some non-native language teachers out there. Oh .. no I go even way beyond this. There is a lot of professors, even on rather prestigious universities, that actually don’t really speak Japanese all that well. And of course, there is those that do. My point here: reaching oral fluency will take a long time for mostly everyone that does not live in Japan or has the opportunity of someone to speak to on a nearly daily base.
Anyway, I would care less about the “perfect partner for conversations” and try to go with what I have to progress as fast and efficient as possible. Speaking Japanese with another learner might not actually push your fluency level by much, but it will actually help you “speaking” anyway. You will be less troubled doing so, it will feel more natural and you might not mind your mistakes as much when you have had people making mistakes as well.
I’d say it really depends on the quality of your “non native” speaking partners. I quit a language school because it was like the blind leading the blind.
Really it all depends on your level and what you are trying to achieve.