I was wondering if there’s anything that irks you when you see a “particularly literal” translation?
One thing that always kind of annoy me is the over-utilization of the word “human” for 人間.
Sure, the literal translation of 人間 IS human, but I’ve seen it used in so many contexts where in English we would culturally use “people”, “mortals”, “man”, “humanity” as a whole etc.
I see this happen in situations where a character is making some sort of blanket statement. Some of the situations do fit, but you often see stuff like “what makes a human, a human” as opposed to the more natural (in my opinion) “what makes a person, a person”.
I’ve even seen this happen in translations that are otherwise excellent.
If anyone also has any insights as to why this type of discourse seems popular in Japanese pop culture, it is also welcome 🙂
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> “people”, “mortals”, “man”, “humanity”
i wont bother explaining why all of those are roughly equivalent but i do have a question
what does this have to do with learning japanese
English to Japanese translations also tend to be painfully literal. The Japanese English education system focuses a lot on painfully literal translation. I’ve never took any Japanese classes in school, but from what I’ve seen, some of that literalism bleeds into the way Japanese is taught. I think that just leads to there being a lot of literalism sneaking into Japanese <-> English translation spaces. I think a lot of early fansubs were very literal, so I think the audience expects it to a certain extent and has grown used to certain overly literal translationisms
Is that specific to anime? And are those translations pro?
Honestly, the ‘human’ thing is usually close enough that it’s not a problem.
On the other hand, the over-literal translation of 浮世 as ‘floating world’ has caused so much confusion to the point of being really aggravating.
In particular, a lot of people interpret it to mean ‘the idea of floating separate from the world’, when in reality this interpretation is *the literal opposite* to what 浮世 refers to.
I disagree. “What makes a person, a person” sounds strange and unusual and I don’t think I’ve ever heard that phrase used before. Now the phrase “What makes a human, human” is something that has been used and sounds a lot better.
I guess for person there may be a phrase like “What makes someone become the person they are” or something like that but that’s an entirely different meaning
I haven’t used a translation in a while, I just use the native Japanese material. However, when watching something subbed with family, I do tend to notice I don’t like the way they translated it
Well, if you’re reading fantasy literature then 人間 is specific enough that I’d hesitate to translate it to “people” because, like, 魔族 might be different in a way the author wants to easily convey.
And “what makes a human human” sounds 100% natural to me, for what it’s worth.
One of my small hobbies is translating bits of Japanese content into actually colloquial English, *precisely because* it messes with expectations and is good for a laugh.
For whatever reason, there is a culture of translations, particularly for manga, anime, light novels, and sometimes games, that are far too literal and yet nowhere near hammy enough. (Anime isn’t always hammed up, but it often is.) Anime translated in this style becomes Serious Business and I now find translated subtitles *so horribly distracting* that I hate watching with them.
Here, lemme give an example. The first time I saw this style of translation it was a clip from Endless Eight, so I’ll do the same from a different point.
—
Haruhi: …and that should wrap up business. *sip*
Still, is it enough? Sure, I guess that’s that. Hey, is there
anything else you wanna do?
*mass exhaustion*
Haruhi: Well alright then. We did get a bunch done this summer, so let’s call it good.
Kyon: (v.o.) No, it’s not… No way it’s enough for you.
Haruhi: (*here, Kyon, you pay*) Let’s call it a day. I’d kept tomorrow open just in case, but you guys can have a break instead. Right, day after tomorrow, see you in the club room.
Kyon: Wait, Haruhi.
(v.o.) It comes again, the ferocious, overwhelming something, stronger this time than ever before, a testement to the myriad and more times we have relived this moment. I must not let her go. If she does, we’ll repeat these two weeks once more. And yet, what shall I do? Surely there is a clue in her words. But what? What? What? Remember, I must remember! Something tugs for my attention, something I keep putting off. If I do nothing she’ll go – I can’t let her! Nothing will change? What have we come to this moment for? What have we left undone? I’ve no time to think, anything will do! Say something! Anything!
Kyon: I still have things left to do!
Haruhi: Ha?
Kyon: That’s right: my homework!
Haruhi: What are you on about…
Kyon: I haven’t started a single problem, so how can my summer be over?!
Haruhi: Bruh?
Kyon: Koizumi, have you finished yours?
Koizumi: Nah, we’ve been so busy running around I’ve got like half left.
Kyon: Then we shall do it together. Nagato, you’re coming too. Surely you’ve got some left. And you too if you would, Asahina-san.
Asahina: But, where?
Kyou: We’ll use my place. Bring your notes and workbooks, we’ll knock it all out together. Put an end to all our summer’s work. Nagato, Koizumi, let us copy whatever you’ve got done so far. Very well, tomorrow morning. Let’s get it all done in a day, one way or another.
Haruhi: Hold it right there. … Who put you in charge? I’m the one who runs the club! If you’re gonna do something like that you’d better ask me first. Kyon, a member making decisions on their own is a serious breach of discipline!
*don*
Haruhi: Cuz I’m coming too!
—
Part of the humor is that Kyon tends to think things in an overly intellectual or literary way, and sometimes it even spills over into how he speaks. Haruhi and Koizumi often are a lot more grounded in reality. I rarely see a translation even try to capture that.
[Now compare this translation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpnT-Wf87Yk). It’s not wrong in any of the details, the trees are fine but the forest, the overall feeling really isn’t. Part of this is because subtitle translation needs to be *really* short and to the point in order to be readable in time. But a lot of it is simply not wanting to ruffle feathers or have anime characters use slang.
Sometimes the translator writes something natural and the person who pays the bills makes them change it.
So translation has to make things make sense in the new language. Your 人間 examples are good examples.
Localization is making the property suitable for the new audience. Is it an “onigiri” or a “donut?” Maybe it’s a “riceball.”
Literary works generally end up as rather literal translations with minimal effort in terms of localization. The reason there is simple: generally no need and it could be “wrong” as well. If you hear that a Person is from Osaka or Okinawa, you can not simply copy this by making this person sound like a Scot or a Irishman. I you can do it and it may even be viewed favourably upon, but it still is far from what it “originally” was.
Now as for your example. I think the choice of words here is for the translator to make. He likely will have some experience in translation and hopefully has enough time to think about his choices. Further more, we are are influenced by what we read. As for me, I read a lot. German books? 1000+. English language books? 1000+. Japanese language books? Including Manga, likely I am beyond 1000 books read as well. And that’s the reason – well, next to be working as a translator myself – that I feel qualified to answer: human is a good and often the best choice to translate 人間.
Your sample mentioned by the way – “what makes a person, a person” – feels “German” to me. It would write it more into something like: “what makes us who we are?”
Or to move more into the people aspect: “Why can’t people help but judge people?” – There the usage of people too would make more sense.
Anyway, I am not an expert on the English language. I trust my skills to translate FROM English (and I don’t mind translating into English if a good Editor goes through my translation), by I focus on JP/GER.
Oh and something maybe unique to the translators perspective. We compete worldwide. I will and can not compete with the pricing of some countries, simply because the cost of living is too high at where I live. Nevertheless, outside of my country there are plenty of people offering translation service in my countries language – and most of this is not from native speakers. Those people generally will use machine translation only, with enough clients actually to go for their services. The industry is highly, highly competetive and the really low prices translators can ask for combined with often harsh deadlines means that quality in general is only high where quality actually is paid for.