Anyone experience something like this before and have any advice?
To give some context, I’m working at an organization in Japan where I am the only American and only non-native Japanese speaker. I started learning Japanese a little over 2 years ago so I do speak Japanese fluently but at a basic level using mostly words found in textbooks. My JLPT level is likely within the 2-3 range. I can have full conversations using only Japanese, but the other person would need to slow down a bit and use more basic vocabulary.
The problem I’m having is no one talks to me at work. I feel like a pariah in the office and having been here 6 months, I would say over half of the office (about 25 people) has not approached me once about anything. My first few months I went out of my way to built rapport with my coworkers, but I quickly realized that I was constantly going to them and not the other way around. So one day I did an experiment where I did not start a conversation all day, and sure enough nobody approached me.
There is one guy who goes out of his way to talk to me every day and tries his best to bring me into the fold which I’m super appreciative of, but I don’t understand why the others avoid me. Because of this, I often get lonely at work and don’t feel like a part of the team.
Has anyone gone through this before and/or have any advice to get out of it?
My coworkers aren’t inherently mean, they’re just unbelievably hesitant to talk to me.
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> I can have full conversations using only Japanese, but the other person would need to slow down a bit and use more basic vocabulary.
So the thing with this, is that being on the other side of this conversation is kind of laborious. Have you ever had a Japanese person come up to you wanting to practice their English, and their language skills are in that peak zone where they’re good enough to hold a *functional* conversation but not good enough for you to *really* talk to them at the cadence and with the lexicon that you would a fellow native? So you have to mentally check each word before you say it, with consideration for pronunciation, connotation, and complexity. And they’ll get it, and be able to respond, but for you it’s kind of a chore.
If I were to hazard a guess? Your coworkers aren’t reaching out to you partly because of typical Japanese shyness but also partly because your Japanese is just not good enough for them to want to make the effort. It sucks, and you can call them lazy if you want, but sometimes that’s just how it is with language barriers.
Sad part of being a foreigner in most countries. I think that there is no much you can do, unless you become super fluent or find a new job.
Where I’m working I’m glad most people approach me without problem, but in order to make part of the other people to approach me I think that I need to speak better japanese (currently close to jlpt 2 , and not very smooth). The remaining part I think that you can’t help it, some people don’t want to approach other people.
It’s the same for me. Been at an ad agency for 10 years and apart from morning greeting to people generally in the office and a goodbye at the end of the day, I don’t utter a word all day sometimes. My coworkers were initially curious about me but after they felt they knew my “story” people stopped. One of the very few “upsides” (if you can even call it that) of being a smoker is that I’ve maintained friendly relationships with a couple of designers at work who also smoke (we chat about our families or work informally), but it’s not as if I can head over to their desks and have a chat. In fact, there is very little small talk in general between anyone.
With that said, there are cliques in the office of people who lunch together — the same people I regard as “work friends” from smoking together have never asked me to join them for lunch once. I try not to take it personally: people have a short break and they want to feel comfortable with who they know and not have a awkward labored conversation. And once they open the door to you, things could go south and then it’s tough for them. People won’t take the risk.
I’ve gotten used to it but I have to admit that after weeks sometimes of not having a conversation, it gets lonely. If I am in a poor state of mind mentally, the combination of being stared at or being forced off the footpath by power playing salarymen walking down the street, ignored in the office, avoided on the train (the seat next to me is always last to fill and sometimes people headed for my seat will suddenly veer off when they see they are about to sit next to a foreigner) etc etc it can really get you down. Especially the train thing, it’s sometimes difficult to reframe the experience as “oh well, more room for me” instead of “I wish I could be invisible”. All of these things on their own are such minor things that barely register anymore when I’m generally feeling OK, but they accumulate and can give you the false impression you are a leper when you aren’t really. If I am depressed anyway, it makes it worse, and I sometimes have to remind myself that my own brain is amplifying the feeling beyond how I might perceive it if I’m feeling good in my life.
About being ignored in the office, I can’t explain it. Perhaps people are eager to maintain their privacy at work and want to keep the boundaries between business and private lives established. Beyond warm greetings in the elevator hall or toilet, there is nothing there, I don’t think anyone sees the point of going out of their way for you. It’s kind of ironic in a way when you see the importance of “relationships” in business generally here and the money that is spent entertaining clients. It doesn’t extend to internal business, clearly.
Don’t let it get you down too much: in the end I think it’s better not to get close to people at work anyway.
Do they socialize with each other much? At the place I worked, they certainly didn’t. That was basically reserved for nomikai or going to lunch together outside the office. Only the sales people seemed to do any talking, everyone else just pounded away at their keyboards.
Lucky!
If you talk to them they won’t ignore you, right? I guess they don’t really need to talk to you, and I get that. I don’t really need to talk to most people at work (or elsewhere).
An idea: just some quick greetings to send signals, but avoid forcing a conversation. Just say hi or something to everyone but no one in particular, smile and move on.
I used to feel like this, but I realized they also don’t talk among them that much outside of work related stuff. It made me feel a bit left out that I’d say “osaki ni shitsurei shimasu” and most people wouldn’t say anything… then I realized it’s the same for everyone else, even though they’ve been working here for over 20 years.
In the end, I’m in friendly terms with everyone and there’s even small talk from time to time. But I honestly don’t want to be their friend outside of work, so I appreciate our dynamic in my office.
Are they hiring? It sounds like the perfect environment.
How’s your B.O.?
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re not “speaking Japanese fluently” if you’re at JLPT 3 and require the other person to only use basic words. That’s not what “fluent” means.
In regards to people not striking up conversations with you, there are likely two reasons:
– People are working and are generally not just going to start talking to someone they barely know.
– It’s likely fairly difficult for them to carry on a full conversation with you because of your language level.
It’s most likely nothing personal. Don’t overthink it, just keep doing your job and improving your Japanese.
Such a painful experience.
I’ve seen this described as “The Rudolf Treatment” where one person is Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer and the other coworkers are the other reindeer who just shun him for being different.
It makes you feel *unwelcome* every goddamned day.
I was in a similar situation, and I tried making small-talk. I tried offering free English practice during lunch break. I wasn’t treated with hostility, but the lack of interest was frustrating—and very lonely.
Eventually I accepted it, and just started using my lunch breaks to exercise in a nearby park. The exercise helped me reduce my stress level, too. So I mostly quit caring.
What ultimately helped the most was really just pure luck and beyond my control. Another foreign person was hired and we could chat a few minutes now and then.
I don’t mean to be “that guy”, so please don’t take offense, but 2 years in Japan and N3 level is not “fluent” in Japanese. That said, conversing and communicating at an N3 level (or slightly above) after only two years is pretty fast progress, so congrats on that front!
I only mention this because you prefaced by saying your Japanese level is not the problem. But I wouldn’t immediately discount it. Knowing the words is only half the battle… know when and how to use them is the other half. Even after living and working here for over 10 years, I still have to bite my tongue so I can fit in better… though my inner American is often screaming “just tell these goofs what’s what.”
Anyway, my point is, keep working on that Japanese. It’s never wasted time. You will find that new words or grammar you learn are often used more than you realize now.
Sorry to be that guy!
Now for some other perspective. I’ve worked in a few different companies and environments here in Japan, and I must say, the 社風 (sha fu) or vibe at every place has varied quite a bit. Some are very stoic. You walk in and it’s dead silent aside from maybe a secretary very quietly talking on the phone. Very few water cooler conversing going on.
Others are quite open and there are people shooting the shit everywhere.
One thing has remained constant though. The smoking area. My favorite spot. That’s where a lot of conversations take place for sure. I can’t recommend the habit, but if you vape/smoke/iqos, that’s a good place to find conversation.
Another big factor, besides your gaijin-ness, are you or your coworkers temp workers? Temps get the shit end of the sha-fu stick. Nobody wants to talk to them because they are “Soto”. And they don’t want to pipe up because they don’t want to break the established sha-fu 和. That said, I always felt sorry for them and often would ask them out to lunch… it was always a bit awkward, but whatever. People are weird, myself included.
Hopefully some other expats pipe up and share their experiences. I still find conversing with fellow Americans easiest… but if you keep making an effort with your Japanese coworkers, you’ll get through to someone eventually.
Hang in there!
That’s not “fluent”
i am in pretty much the same exact situation as you. No one will talk to me unless there is an English call and they want to to speak to the customer. (even when its not my job)
I dont think they are doing it to be mean, its just the way they are.
Coming from the UK where everone talks to each other at work, it was really hard to get used to it. it caused me a load of stress at my last job.
But now i dont even care, i dont really want to talk to them either, so its a perfect situation. I say just go to work, do your hours, take the money and get out of there. Try not to worry about it.
It depends on workplaces but some Japanese people don’t talk to coworkers so often. I don’t talk to 95 percent coworkers working in the same building, so it’s common in Japan. Coworkers aren’t friends and some think coworkers cannot be friends.
JLPT N2 – 3 is never good enough to talk to Japanese people casually. You say you started to learn it 2 years ago, so I think your proficiency might be close to N3 or 4. The grammar and vocabulary you know are really limited. Talking to someone whose JLPT is N3 is as tough as talking to non native speaker of English whose TOEFL is 30, TOEIC is 400, CEFR A1 – 2. Blatantly speaking, it’s just boring to talk to you.
There are several dynamics in Kanto that I think contribute to this, aside from what everyone else has said.
One is that friendship is given less priority than work and family.
Two is that convenience is a huge issue, and being in a large city, there’s always someone else who won’t disappoint you, won’t be an inconvenience.
Three is that privacy is taken very seriously. And older workers start valuing alone time (esp. if they have families).
Fourth is that because work is so holy, and is so exhausting… There is no room for difference. I have a memory of seeing an adult try talk to this woman at the station early in the morning. Intellectual disability, completely innocent desire for connection. I too wouldn’t have the bandwidth for that, at that time, in this city. There is no alone time in this country, because you have to deal with everyone’s expectations (even small things like knowing you stink in the train after sweating on a hot day). Plus work. People need predictable patterns. Predictable patterns don’t exhaust.
(They exhaust me, but that’s for different reasons)
Neoliberalism hasn’t helped. One sociologist talks about how young people are making less friends and sticking with families (ie. Safer connections). Friendships are risk.
As an eternally single gay ma though, friends are my lifeline. I can’t rely on family like so many others ca
.. But when I have to spend everyday working with people who I can’t have a reciprocal relationship…
I’ve asked for full time remote work. I’ve given up. Spending the majority of my life with people who I will never have room to connect with is… It’s not reciprocal.
But at the end of the day, are London or New York any better?
But there are people here. Outcasts. People married to foreigners. Independent thinkers. I am very close with my company’s lawyer. Husband is American, and she is progressively minded, and feels safe with me.
Also, a therapist told me that people here approach friendship extremely slowly, even with fellow countrymen. After a long time, it then rapidly gets intimate.
Having joint complaints also helps. My sharehouse bonded intensely, thanks to the cockroaches and rats and the freezing cold. As an elementary ALT, I made friends with the teachers by grumbling and laughing over the kids.
Corporations though…
I’ve been on all sides of this basically.
When I first started working at my first real job (outside of some high school/college service jobs) EVERYONE wanted to talk to me all the time to practice English because the company IT department was English-oriented. It was a huge drain and let’s be honest they just wanted to practice English.
My second job was like your current job, nobody wanted to talk to me. They clearly communicated with each other regularly and just not me. In the years since I have realize there were a few different reasons:
1. No matter how well I thought I could communicate, they tended to hear my Japanese like you could imagine the poorest English-speaking Foreigner in America – probably even worse.
2. I hate to be a downer with this one too, but most foreigners have a “me first” point of view and suffer from a lot of short-timer syndrome because in fact they don’t plan on staying in Japan or at the *company* for life.
3. Sometimes foreigners can come off as too forward, too weird and other things that just rub people the wrong way. This one is I think hard to understand sometimes because everyone still talks to Sakura in Accounting who microwaves fish in the office daily.
Here’s the things that have changed/improved over the decades since my first two jobs:
1. My language is obviously perfectly conversant at this point. Generally anyone in Kanto can understand me perfectly fine and flow and speed of speech are “normal”, so nobody is going out of their way to avoid talking to me. Nobody every tries to use me as a practice dummy.
2. I’ve been here for 23 years, I’m an expert in a bunch of areas, so people have no choice but to come to me. I’m also clearly invested in the *company* for life.
3. I think I’ve figured out more of this type of stuff and avoid being the wrong kind of weird. It actually helps if YOU start microwaving fish daily.
> I started learning Japanese a little over 2 years ago so I do speak Japanese fluently but at a basic level using mostly words found in textbooks. My JLPT level is likely within the 2-3 range.
That’s not what fluency means. You’re not fluent.
Sounds like the perfect workplace.
“Fluently” does not mean “basic level” and “slowly” with “basic vocabulary.”
What do you actually do at work?
Anyway, there are going to be multiple factors at play here, with various factors affecting each colleague in various ways:
1. They fear for their lives. This is normal.
1. You’re going home soon, so there’s no point wasting effort on interacting with you. Demonstrating that you have some sort of multi-decade stake going on might help somewhat, YMMV.
1. They have the hots for you, but are very shy. Don’t shit where you eat.
1. The boss never bothered to explain who you are, what you do, and what you are to them. Did you get introduced to everyone, or did you simply parachute straight into your chair?
1. Being seen talking with the alien man may see them being seen as being untrustworthy, with subsequent banishment to the General Affairs Dept. That one nice guy may actually be “Korean”, and therefore has nothing to lose.
1. They think you’re from HQ, and are spying on them.
1. They cannot understand you.
1. Endemic racism.
1. Deeply rooted racialism.
1. Too busy.
1. Not busy enough, and talking to you will draw unwanted attention.
1. They are actually robots.
I was in a situation like you. So, I can relate to you. I was working in a small company and only few people are responsible for the whole projects. 90% of the conversation I had was with my senior who was responsible for providing me my work. We also had some common hobby, so we were able to hangout outside of work too but a huge age gap meant I wasn’t his friend and there was always a respect factor involved. Some young colleagues used to come and speak with me if we were leaving work at the same time, like walking till the station together. I did not have problem speaking Japanese with them, not at a native level but still had no problem on a daily conversation level. What I found out is like everywhere else in Japan, people are not that friendly, especially if you are in Kanto area. They are kind to you and help you if you ask for it but they will not go out of their way to talk with you. Talking behind the back and complaining is quite frequent, so I did not acutally want to befriend everyone at my workplace. If you work in company outside of Kanto area, your experience will differ vastly as people are a bit more friendlier.
I mean you’re an outsider?
They likely feel like they are talking more to a child than an adult.
I know you’re trying to converse during work cause it’s your biggest part of your day but you may also get that people don’t like having that extra elevator talk nonstop. Especially, when you can only speak or know basic words they can’t deep dive into conversations about more niche things that are going on in their life.
Try to make friend outside of work. If you get the same type of response it’s a you thing and not a work thing
Sometimes that’s just how it is. I wouldn’t recommend trying to force things too much with other folks as it’s not likely to go well. You have a professional relationship, but not a social one. Go to them if you need something for work and maybe work in a little small chit-chat on the side if it’s relevant.
Don’t focus on the folks who don’t want to talk. Be thankful and focus on the one guy who is giving you attention and reciprocate that kindness sometimes. Maybe offer to grab him a coffee or something if you’re getting one for yourself – that type of thing.
>I do speak Japanese fluently
Ok, that’s good…
>My JLPT level is likely within the 2-3 range.
So, not fluent at all.
Which one is it?
” My first few months I went out of my way to build rapport with my coworkers, but I quickly realized that I was constantly going to them and not the other way around. So one day I did an experiment where I did not start a conversation all day, and sure enough, nobody approached me.”
So… approach them?
So you’re self assessed N2/N3. There’s a reason this is a meme and has been for more than 20 years…
I’m from the US and in the US it’s pretty common for strangers to strike up a conversation for no other reason than to just have noise in the room. We’ll also become quick friends if we find something in common. Japanese people tend to not talk to people who aren’t in their social circle that was formed in school/college. Getting into that circle takes a lot more effort (and alcohol) than you would be used to if you’re American. My wife is Japanese and all of her friends except for 1 are people she went to school with years ago.
It’s been 4 years and I’ve accepted the reality that as long as I am here I’ll have to deal with going days at work without interacting with anyone unless it’s about fixing their English. I have Japanese acquaintances here that I’ll talk to every once in a while (and only about the 1 thing we bonded over whether it be Genshin Impact, Goshuincho or Heike Monogatari), but the only Japanese friends I have are my wife (classic) and her family.
Honestly, in some work environments here people just don’t talk to each other at all outside of the context of their work and things needing to be done.
The social ones probably also already have their own groups, often made up of “douki” or same time hires. And they have no shared context or experience of life, so unless they’re interested in foreigners they have no reason to talk to you.
Also, office politics can be nasty, and people might not want to talk about themselves in case that gets used against them.
It’s probably a bit of everything. But the workplace for many people is not the place to make friends, nor is it a place for conversation practice.
Some offices are just like that. It might just have to do with you being the latest addition that in their eyes you’re still the newbie and they’re a bit hesitant. Personally I would enjoy the peace. I have worked with enough shamelessy asking all kinds of personal questions coworkers that I would really appreciate this kind of environment.
You don’t need fluent Japanese for people to be coming up to you and chatting I can’t speak Japanese hardly at all but managed to get in with a construction company just digging roads and we went for lunch and tried to speak but I suppose yanki’s are a different breed to the salary man.
Salary men have had their souls removed long ago so most likely they just have nothing to say to you, I feel sorry for anyone working in a corporate Japan because it’s just miserable. To be honest the workman life ain’t great either but at least those guys have a life, and short the shit with each other.
Dunno what to tell you really it’s Japan socially people are reserved shy and don’t want to engage with westerners
First, your Japanese most likely isn’t as good as you think it is. Second, do your coworkers even know you speak any Japanese?
Many people here just assume a foreign face can’t speak a lick of the language.
My advice: Git gud. Also snacks help. Bring in some omiyage from “random place” and post it in the work chat channel.
To me, 6 months doesn’t seem like a long time. I’ve found it’ll take several years at least for me exchange anything more than minimal pleasantries with anyone I work with. It doesn’t have anything to do with the other person’s linguistic abilities.
I am Japanese and a native Japanese speaker. Let me say one thing. We are fucking seriously bad at speaking English. When we meet a guy who looks like a “Gaijin”, we flinch and think, “Oh my God, they can’t possibly understand my shitty English.”
Even if the foreigner can communicate in Japanese, we unconsciously avoid him. It doesn’t mean that they don’t like you. We also tend to be a bit shy. To be frank, it is not unusual for Japanese people in the same workplace not to talk to each other…
Please keep trying to communicate with us in Japanese!! Sorry for my bad English.
Some people in the comment section here are jerks.
OP did not ask your opinion for his Japanese level and he is not on trial to pass his language test.
Good for OP for trying to practice his skills. Sometimes in textbooks we can be on one level but in real life on different one because of how our conversation goes.
Regarding the post as well, I understand your feeling. I don’t think it is a cultural thing but rather a work- environment thing. I also feel extremely lonely in my day- to- day environment but I soon will change it (aka I am moving out), if you can’t change your environment so I suggest to try and still go and speak to your coworkers. Sometimes relationships take time to develop. You said that you have someone who comes and speak to you please cherish him because it shows that not all of people there are jerks.
Basically living in a different cultural environment can be very stressful and hard, so perhaps you can find someone outside the work to talk to? Maybe find a hobby and a social club? I would do that.
Do your coworkers talk to each other? I mean like everyday shooting the shit about non-work related topics. If they don’t, do they only speak then when they have a work-related question or so? If so, then maybe it could be because if their work subject matter is so different from yours (I assume something to do with English…?), maybe they have nothing in common with you to confirm/ask about so they’ve no reason to approach you. Some workplaces are like that, it’s considered in bad taste to chat about non-work topics during working hours. Other places are filled with chatty Kathy’s, it all depends on the office culture.
Or it could be they’re just not comfortable talking to you, for any number of reasons. Your Japanese level would probably be described by Japanese people as カタコト if your accent+intonation sounds foreign. Or something else that is cultural: your vocab and grammar could be perfect but maybe your voice volume is really loud by their standards, or you don’t acknowledge their social hierarchy properly (i.e., you’re too casual and don’t show increased politeness towards people who are older than you/have been in the company longer than you) and to them that feels uncouth, or maybe you say things too directly or say the quiet part out loud, all things that you don’t really learn in a textbook, beyond vocab and grammar, but that a well-adjusted Japanese new hire in the workday context could never. And that makes them uncomfy because talking with you becomes unpredictable and risky, esp. if they aren’t used to/don’t find it fun to communicate with foreigners and don’t know what it’s like.
If you don’t know your JLPT level, and you’re just speculating that it’s 2-3, it’s actually closer to 4. That in itself is perfectly fine, but it does limit the types of conversations people can have with you.
As you continue to study Japanese and demonstrate more proficiency, it’s possible that people will be more inclined to chat with you here and there. This is a common enough situation in a Japanese workplace. Or perhaps they won’t want to talk to you that much, because they’re busy doing whatever they’re doing, and they already have office friends. It’s generally remarked that the biggest changes happen in April each year. When people get transferred or moved around, it’s a chance to make new friends. So if you plan on staying there, I’m curious what you’ll feel 10 months from now.
Japan has a problem when it comes to otherness.
Japanese work culture is probably not the same as what you’re used to.
It’s unfortunate, but if you want people to speak to you, you’ll probably have to speak to them. You may end up being “that guy”, but then again, you’re probably already “that guy”. It’s a bit of a Catch-22.
If there’s something you’d genuinely like to talk to your co-workers about and if you think you can do so without having a negative impact on their work, then go for it.
> I do speak Japanese fluently but at a basic level
You’re not fluent. A person either is or isn’t fluent and you are not fluent. It’s energy and time consuming to speak to a beginner like yourself, so be realistic about your abilities and work on actually becoming fluent outside of work. If you keep pushing your colleagues to be your language partners, they will resent you even more.
I once worked with someone who overestimated their language abilities and my heart sank every time I had to deal with her. I already had my own work to do, I really did not have the time or energy to babysit anyone else.
Ok to be brutally honest a few things could be going on here.
1. Your Japanese is worse than you think it is and it’s not that easy to talk to you, in that case it should be on you to try to go practice your Japanese with them not on them to try to come help you.
2. You are boring.
3. You did something to piss people off and they have a bad image of you.
The answer is not “Japanese people are not social at work”
All you can do here is try harder to make friends or find a new job if you think they’re all dicks.