Recently one of my foreigner friends mentioned that he hates when other foreigners pronounce Japanese place names in a Japanese manner in the middle of an English conversation.
What do you guys think? Some examples he gave were (1) “Roppongi” being pronounced with the pause (the “っ” ) between to “ro” and the “pon”, (2) the first syllable of Hiroshima being pronounced with a proper Japanese ひ type sound instead of an English rendering (instead of pronouncing it as “he” (as in opposite of she)), and (3) Tokyo being pronounced as toukyou instead of the English rendering in which the “o” sounds are not elongated
He thinks it’s fine if Japanese people or those born and raised here do it but when foreigners who grew up entirely abroad do it it feels like they’re trying to show off
What do you guys think. Btw I totally disagreed with my friend on this
46 comments
“I hate foreigners who speak Japanese because I can’t speak it.”
Is essentially what he’s saying.
Let me guess. Your friend is a non Japanese speaking American?
Yeah, your friend is an idiot, and also a bit assuming of others’ speech. I’m personally going to be a bit assuming, Are they American?
I’m very white, but grew up in Australia surrounded by Asian people. I learned how to pronounce a lot of Asian words from other Asians growing up. I personally hate when Japan caters to the American pronunciation while disregarding other English speakers, Shi-boo-ya is my most hated.
He sounds like an idiot – and probably *sounds* like an idiot too.
Pronounce places where he is from incorrectly. See what he thinks.
I’ve got a Japanese friend who went to university in America and insists on pronouncing Japanese proper nouns with an American accent. Haneda becomes Haneeeda. ShinJuuku etc. So annoying.
I mock her about it all the time.
The second kanji in her name is 藤 and she spells it in English with an h on the end. Ugh.
He sounds like a total nobhead tbh. Truth is, Japanese people probably appreciate it if you pronounce it correctly. I personally find it nagging in my ears when I hear people pronouncing Japanese place names/food in a very bastardised manner but I don’t say anything or blame them since they don’t speak Japanese so you can’t expect them to say it correctly
Tell her you feel the same when eJapanese speak to you in their broken English lol. Stick to Japanese
I’m hoping it’s just a pet peeve of his not virtue signaling because if he gets offended if other people wear kimonos or any other “cultural appropriation” then there’s larger issue at play here.
My friend used to pronounce the word “dachshund” as DASHOUND (whatever correct german accent) and it was just weird. Also, i dont really mind except for the word “Sushi” lol SUSHH
Haha even my parents pronounce Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto the Japanese way now.
It’s fine to pronounce them either way imo, your friend just has his knickers in a twist over nothing 🙂
Gonna be real real here son, but your friend’s an idiot. Most non-Japanese aren’t even native English speakers so wtf should we adapt our pronunciation to suit his dumb-ass inferiority complex.
That said, I nevur bin to heeeerooosheeeeemuuuuh bruh.
I shall not mince words here
Your friend is a dumbass.
FUCK OH-Saka or CHEE-ba or KYOH-TOH
fucking hate it when people say that. Especially people who should know better (people who have been here for years).
This is a fun topic: for me I pronounce Ōsaka properly but Tokyo in my normal accent. Have some ideas why which I could expand on but it’s an interesting topic. You don’t want to jolt them out of the conversation suddenly adding a Japanese ‘word’ in English and we all know it seems pretentious when someone pronounces Paris correctly with the silent S amid an English conversation.
My thinking is that it depends on whether there is an accepted and widely used and agreed upon pronunciation. From Australia btw.
Everyone says Tokyo the same. So I say it the way everyone says it. But as for Osaka, it’s a lot less common to hear and there isn’t one pronunciation, mainly you would hear oSAKA but it’s so far from the true pronunciation that it feels weird to say how non JP speakers would attempt it.
But then again, everyone says Kyoto the same but it’s so wrong I can’t do it since learning Japanese.
Some are easy like Ishigaki is easy…
Names are another story but generally say them correctly but slowly.
I think 南アルプス市 is a difficult one.
I agree with your friend. Unless you’re speaking English to a Japanese person who might not know the English pronunciations, it comes across as pretentious.
These are place names which have English pronunciations that fit English sentences. If you’re going to go down the road of pronouncing Tokyo as トウキョウ in the middle of an English sentence among native English speakers, you might as well start pronouncing Paris and Rome like French and Italian people do while you’re at it.
Equally, I don’t think any Japanese people fluent in English pronounce London like they’re in a Guy Richie film when talking to native Japanese speakers, even when they’re in London. That’s not how it’s pronounced in Japanese. It doesn’t fit Japanese sentences. It sounds forced.
I’m assuming your friend is American. They’re the only people I’ve encountered with this kind of arrogant attitude towards language.
I heard names of some places after I moved to Japan, so my brain memorizes the pronunciation in Japanese manner.
Interesting phenomena because we wouldn’t say Italian or French place names in those languages or Chinese ones for that matter.
However, as a Japanese speaker I feel more comfortable pronouncing them properly because, like, I can.
This reminds me of another friend I have (yes American) who can speak Japanese kinda ok (I’d say L3) but whenever a katakana word comes up he will always pronounce it just as a normal English word in an American sentence. I’ve never seen a Japanese person what he is saying when that happens.
この辺にtobaccoを吸ってもいいrestaurantありますか？
If you know how to say words correctly you should do it, especially if you’re in that place.
I would make an exception for media or conversations in a foreign country directed to foreign people. I live in the US and Japan at different parts of the year, and when I speak to foreigners in Japan I use Japanese pronunciation because that’s appropriate there. And when I’m in the US like now and I speak to people I will probably use the American pronunciation, unless I’m speaking to a Japanese person. It’s called code switching and it’s normal, but maybe person to person it varies in what situation they do which.
I speak chinese and only use the specific chinese tones when speaking in mandarin, otherwise i just come across as a pretentious prick when speaking to another native english speaker.
Your friend hates when people pronounce things correctly? What a weirdo!
As an American, your friend seems like the worst kind of American. Like I can see it being weird if you were in the States with only a group of English speakers and the correct pronunciation “threw things off” but you’re in Japan, talking about places in Japan. The fuck? Lol 🤣
Your friend is an idiot and should go back home to where they are from (assuming USA as this sounds like a very 🇺🇸 attitude)
I sometimes speak it the japanese way or the english way depending on the word without disrupting the flow to add some extra long inflection like tokyo has. I do however use proper pronunciation just with natural english (not particularly american eng) intonations. E.g. ka-ra-oh-kay and not curryoaky.
I say ultraman the normal English way. There’s no need to insist on making it Urutoramahn unless u r speaking only with Japanese with zero english knowledge. Doing so would imo justifiably incur the judgement of being a tryhard.
What? LOL
He just sounds projecting/jealous. Also peak English-centric… Like some of us are not English speakers originally. Some of us have our own native language outside of English. Nobody owes him English-accented Japanese pronunciation.
As non native English speaker I prefer the Japanese way (pronunciation) since it’s almost identical to how it sounds in my language.
Actually I have a feeling that only English has weird sounds when pronouncing foreign words, especially American English.
You should really punch him straight in the face. Might help him in the long run.
I find it entirely strange at the opposite end of the perspective from your friend.
If you’re speaking a language, it is quite strange to suddenly switch languages specifically for a single term. The reason this gets really strange in the argument threads that people start running down is that the presumption is made that there is a “correct” way to pronounce something, and that correct pronunciation always comes from the language of origin for the term. People argue this more vehemently, especially in America, for names.
The pronunciation you’re using should be entirely based on the language you’re currently speaking in. Every language has entire libraries of loan words, foreign origin root words, and words that have been completely assimilated.
This is why, when speaking in Japanese, you should legit pronounce foreign words in Japanese phonetics. The “correct” pronunciation and the one that’s actually going to be understood by other members of that speech community is the katakana one, not trying to suddenly switch to sounds that don’t even exist in Japanese phonetics.
If you don’t switch to English every time you use an English origin katakana word, by your own philosophy on the subject, you should also not switch to Japanese pronunciation in the middle of an English sentence. There are arguments to be made for code switching, but the majority of foreigners here aren’t far enough in to the language for that process to authentically and naturally happen anyway.
Show your friend this thread he can read me calling him a dunce.
Me majoring in Japanese 🥲
If I were speaking to them stateside, then insisting on using the proper J pronunciation would be a bit pedantic, maybe, (can’t stand “carry-oh-key”, btw), but here in Japan?
Just tell him that Tokio is a boy band…
Growing up outside japan does not mean your native language in English.
Rendering Tokyo to persian version would sound weird so using Japanese pronouncing makes sense for those people.
consider this in reverse…as in native japanese speaker speaking to another native japanese speaker in japanese and one person suddenly saying macdonalds in an american accent…would be jarring in my opinion. language is interesting that way, more about communication than a set of rules.
Sounds like he is from a monolingual culture ;P
If you know the proper native pronunciation of a word you use as loan word… then use the native pronunciation. That happens a lot in Europe. Many cities here have a German name, a Slavic name and a correct pronounced Slavic name 😛
If you use the German one, you are not wrong. If you use the Slavic one… you are kinda wrong… if you learn that that damn Z isnt hard in Croation… then you are nice 😛
p.S: I hate the English pronunciation of Japanese words^^
Do you say Paree or Barthelona or Budapesht?
A native English speaker switching to full Japanese pronunciation while speaking English to other English speakers is indeed an affectation.
There is a reasonable middle ground, however.
Sounds like your friend is from America. Lol
I refuse to say careyoky. Just flat out. No.
I kinda agree with him, it’s on the same kinda douchey level as going to a mexican restaurant and ordering all the food items with a mexican accent or just saying any french loan word in a French accent.
At the end of the day you do you, but people are definitely gonna judge you for it
In a conversation with another English speaker, I will pronounce the words the way they are said in English, as that is what sounds most natural in that context. Same as I would pronounce a katakana word the Japanese way and not the English way when speaking Japanese. In a mixed conversation with English and Japanese speakers, I will use the Japanese way, since it makes it easier for the non-native speakers. In Japanese conversation, I say it the Japanese way.
The coolest, most humble, and most fluently bi-lingual people I’ve met both in Japan and the US (both American and Japanese nationals) have one thing in common…
they choose which pronunciation to use based on context. If they are amongst people who don’t speak Japanese they will typically use americanized pronunciation as it makes others comfortable and puts the focus on effective communication, not single words that stand out.
There are exceptions though, (like speaking english with a native Japanese speaker whose english level is not fluent. In that case native Japanese pronunciation is more likely to be used) but they are always based on context and putting effective communication to the listener 1st.
The most bilingual guy I’ve ever met is a professional in-person translator and he does this consistently.
Here’s a rule of thumb. If you say it correctly and they don’t understand, then language is a matter of being understood and understanding via mutually understood terms, so I may just adjust the pronunciation if it is not as understandable. Think of the few Japanese terms westerns may actually know, like Karaoke, but its pronunciation is butchered beyond recognition to them if you say it correctly. In those cases, I may just say Karaoke in the English way.
That being said, that’s not usually the case. Most of the time, if you say “Tou-kyou” instead of “Toe-key-oh”, they will almsotly definitely still understand you, and pointing out an annoyance for a term they clearly still understood just seems like it’s their own problem.
I agree with your friend, but possibly not for the same reason. It’s not about “does it seem snobby?” (it does), it’s about “can this person understand me?” If not, what is the point of pronouncing Nagano correctly? Is it just to have an opportunity to get into a long explanation of how Japanese pronunciation works? Personally I don’t have the time for that and I don’t assume everyone wants to learn. It’s grating but when I’m speaking English, Mazda is Mazda, not Matsuda, because I want to make my point and move on.
I may be going against the grain here, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pronouncing a Japanese thing closer to English phonemes while speaking English to other English speakers. Of course when you speak japanese or are speaking English to a japanese person, that’s different.
It also depends on the word. If it’s a city or food name that is commonly understood outside of Japan, I always say it with my natural American accent when speaking to non-Japanese people. Idk, personally I think it sounds pretentious when people (!who are speaking a language natively!) randomly say a borrowed word with the other language’s accent. Like pronouncing karaoke the Japanese way while talking to a group of foreigners. Idk, I think it’s cringe.
My job involves switching between languages constantly and I personally am proud of being able to switch accents quickly, it took practice. When I first came to japan I remember meeting English speaking westerners who had weird intonation and accents from living here so long, and it’s always stuck with me and I actively try not to be like that. I don’t want people to realize I spent most of my adult life abroad when I go back to the US. So yeah, I personally don’t say things in a Japanese accent ever while speaking English.