Abortion after bad news

38 comments

1. The bad news is that it is extremely difficult to get an abortion without the consent of both parents. The only exception would be if you had no way of knowing who the father is, but the fact that you are married makes your husband the father in the eyes of the law.

   If your husband is absolutely unwilling to compromise on this, then you should make plans to get the procedure done in your home country if allowed. The final decision is yours. I think that your husband may possibly be in denial, and he may come around when faced with medical reason, but you need to do what is best for you here. Give your husband a week to come around and then make other plans if you have to.

2. I sent you a DM. Please let me know if you need more information.

3. You won’t get any judgment from me, and whatever options that remain available to you are your inherent right to use. Having said that, I wouldn’t regret having our little guy with DS even if we’d been given the option of termination (and I say that as someone who is pro-choice).

   I understand what you’re going through is daunting beyond words, and it’s very easy to get swept up in the fear of it all, both real and imagined. There is far more to this than darkness though, even if it’s almost impossible to imagine until your child is there in your arms.

   I’ll leave it at that for now, but if you want any insights from someone who’s gone through it all before, I’m more than happy to provide them. There is a growing acknowledgment that health practitioners often aren’t able to provide a full picture to those in your situation, even when they try their best to do so.

   Whatever happens, you’re going to be alright.

4. Contrary to popular belief down syndrome is not only tied to maternal age, but also paternal age. Basically the older you get the likelihood your egg or sperm is low quality or defective is higher. The maternal age plays a higher role, but paternal age plays a not insignificant role as well.

   As for abortion, my wife had agreed to abort if any tests showed results like yours, just so you know you aren’t the only one who thinks like that. Unfortunately I can’t help you other than to say you may need to go your home country for an abortion if you can’t convince you husband and will probably be the end of your marriage.

5. The general time limit to have it done is 21 weeks and 6 days. Besides medical emergencies, that is the general law. (JAOG [https://www.jaog.or.jp/qa/confinement/](https://www.jaog.or.jp/qa/confinement/))

   I wouldn’t comment on your husband thinking as we ain’t even the jury in this case. It is time for some hard talks with your clinic with the husband in tow.

6. My brother did testing with his girlfriend and they tested positive. He got a different doctor to retest, and his son tested negative. In the end, his son was born without down syndrome. I would get a second test, just in case, but either way no judgement.

7. Hey, I’m sorry about this news. I can only imagine how stressful this would be. There’s r/NIPT as a resource to look into in terms of others experiences. You can get further tests that can give you further information before you decide to terminate. Another community which may be helpful and supportive is r/tfmr_support

8. >he said something about a 3D scan.

   There is such a thing. My wife got one. If you’re thinking of doing it, do it soon. Tomorrow. The day after.

   It’s called 4D エコー in Japanese.

9. I think these tests usually give the result in the form of a probability. At least when we did it we were told “based on the test results there is 1 in 2345 (or something similar, I don’t remember the exact number) of the baby having DS”. The number depends on the actual measurements etc they did during the test. In effect our test basically meant “the baby doesn’t have DS” but there is some margin of error.

   If you got the result indirectly through your husband maybe ask him for the paper with the result on it, it might have the probability.

10. Have you take the amniocentesis test to confirm it? Since my hospital offer that one free right after NIPT if NIPT came back positive, I wonder if yours would do the same. The result should come out really soon and would be a lot more accurate. I know I should not give you false hope and I’m really sorry about this, but I wish you all the best.

11. I’m so sorry about this bad news. You should book an appointment in your home country and buy a plane ticket now. Don’t wait, makes some calls tonight and explain the diagnosis to the clinics.

    As for your husband, you can tell him you’re going to get a more accurate second opinion in your home country and you don’t want a language barrier. In reality, you could do that or get an abortion or both. It’s your life. Good luck.

12. For your husband: you can get a 3D/4D scan 3D／4Dエコー now (it’s usually done between 15-32 weeks) and see what that test reveals in terms of Downs. You’ll have to go to a clinic or a hospital that offers that kind of ultrasound (if yours doesn’t now).

    If you don’t want to wait: you need to get your husband to agree to an abortion now because both the mother and father need to sign off on the paperwork. Abortion here is available to 21 weeks and 6 days. Afterwards, abortion is available only if the mother’s life is at risk.

13. I think you need to bring your husband around on this. There’s a reason some countries have a near 100% abortion rate for down syndrome, like Iceland: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/

    If you husband is worried about a false positive, which IS a small but non-zero possibility, maybe you two could agree to a re-test as soon as possible and just follow the results of the re-test?

14. I think you need to find an English speaking doctor who can explain how NIPT tests work and what your option are.

    NIPT tests are not 99% accurate. They give you a probability that your baby will have certain conditions- that’s it. Do you know what your probability was?

    As a previous poster mentioned – amniocentesis is a good option for you. An amneo is actually 98-99% accurate.

    Again, you really need a medical professional who speaks English.

15. The NIPT is just a screening. It should have come back with a percentage risk. “High risk” could be 1/10 which still means a 90% chance of a normal pregnancy. You need an amniocentesis to know for sure. After the amnio results you should receive some counseling on your options.

16. While the NIPT test is ‘accurate’, it’s not *diagnostic*. It’s accurate in saying the risk is high. I think that’s an important distinction to understand and is probably what your husband is getting at.

    It could be accurate to say there’s a “90% chance of rain today” but that doesn’t mean rain is guaranteed.

    Or, let’s say you’re playing a game where you take a token out of a covered box. There are ten tokens in the box, one is green the other nine are red. There’s a high likelihood you’ll get a red one. That’s a 100% accurate statement – but it doesn’t mean you definitely will get a red one.

    So, are *diagnostic* tests available? I had a ‘higher risk’ type result after an ultrasound scan and we had an amnioscentisis. This gives you a much more certain result on which to base your decision because it’s measuring directly.

    I’m really sorry you’re going through this. Anyone who hasn’t faced this kind of thing really has no idea how complex and heartbreaking it is.

    I have to say though, I had an aunt with Down Syndrome, and she was amazing and none of us ever felt we were ‘stuck with a burden’. She was still a human being, after all, who brought us love and joy. But yes a disabled child is hard work, especially in the sense of not becoming independent in adulthood, impact on her siblings, and her extra health problems. I’m not judging you by the way, I just wanted to put that information out there. I considered an abortion too. It just hurts to see disabled people spoken about like that, is all.

    Keep in mind that you may get a disabled child anyway, even if it’s not a genetic issue – it’s the risk you signed up for.

17. Hugs to you. I’m sorry you have to make that decision. You can get more tests, and I think you ought to hurry about that.

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19. Get a second test first.

    Most of the people who learn that their child will be born with down syndrome chose abortion. If you are lucky, you child will be functional enough to live on their own so it’s up to you whether you want to take the risk or not.

    I don’t know how old your husband is but if “significantly older” means he is 20+ years old than you, chances are that in your 50’s, you will have to take care of both your elderly husband and a child with the body and strength of an adult.

20. That’s such a tough decision, and ultimately up to you personally. Wish you the best considering the circumstances.

21. From your replies here I’d recommend; Abort mission, go next.

22. Not to pry but your husband is worried he won’t be able to conceive again because he is older. Did you two struggle to get pregnant this first time or did he have problems in the past?

23. Your next step should be amniocentesis – even thought NIPT is quite accurate, it only shield probability percentage of Down cyndrome – how many percents did you get in your result?
    Amniocentesis is 99% accurate.
    The clinic, where I had NIPT, offered discounted amniocentesis in case of any probability of chromosome abnormality – maybe ask the clinic, if you can get it done there soon? If the result is positive, I believe, you can have abortion until week 21-22, but need husband consent for it.

24. You can DM me. I have direct experience with this situation.

25. An important question can be, what will you regret more, the fallout of this relationship or not making the right choice for you and having resentment.
    Of course you can love your child no matter what, but it doesn’t change the fact that you may have been pressured into it; leading to resentment hopefully not to your child but to the father. DS or
    Not, this situation highlights differences that aren’t just about the topic itself (abortion or Down syndrome) but about the agreement/negotiation limits you both have.
    Also, he is older. The reality is , is he ready to live and work and take the time to care for the child if it does have DS? You don’t know what could happen to you and he would have to handle a special needs child.

26. I had an abortion in Japan, different reason but nonetheless. It was pretty “easy”. We went to a ladies clinic and explained the situation.
    The father of the embryo had to sign the papers, otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

    General anesthesia, woke up. Pain for about a week with bleeding.
    No long term negative effects (in my case neither psychologically, nor physically). Now mom to a great child, couple years later. Never regretted it for a minute.

    Go ask them about your chances of getting pregnant again based off your husbands and your physical status.
    It is a tough decision and you two should talk it out. NIPT is rarely wrong but they can do another test even at this early stage. That confirms it but beats the risk of aborting due to this procedure. I personally would at least do that first.

27. In Japan the limit for abortion is 22 weeks, beyond that and you can’t have it. Keep in mind that NIPT is not a definitive diagnosis, it only states the possibility. Thus to confirm that your baby do have Down’s syndrome you need a proper chromosome test first. Please do consult to your ob/gyn doc for further info.
    Edit: checked the text book and limitation is 22 weeks.

28. Ultimately, the choice is up to you. Whatever decision you come to, I hope you can access whatever procedure or care you need.

    But food for thought (directed at ANYONE wanting to conceive and raise a child):

    You cannot predict what your child will be like. You have to face that reality and come to terms with it, if you truly want to have a child.

    If not DS, who is to say that your child won’t have some other challenges (whether at birth or as they develop)?
    Mental illness? Mood disorder? Learning disability? Physical limitations or “defects”? Autism? These are all possibilities for anyone.

    You cannot test for these aforementioned things or predict their probability with great certainty (emphasis on the certainty) prior to conception.
    Would you still have those children that may be considered a “burden”?
    Why is a child with DS any different? (DS itself comes with many variations, mind you.)

    My point isn’t a scare tactic or guilt trip for you to keep this child (who may or may not have DS). If you really believe you couldn’t handle a special needs child, it would be a discredit to that child for you to move forward and have them.

29. good luck really

30. My nephew was told he would have Down syndrome when my sister was pregnant with him when she was 22 years old. He turned out just fine, no Down syndrome, no mental or physical impairments. I’m pro choice so you do you, but I agree with others that the tests aren’t always accurate and doctors aren’t always right.

31. I think you need to ask for an amniocentesis test to confirm. I had to have an abortion at 20 weeks because my baby was not going to survive, which involved giving birth normally, they place medicine inside you to make contractions start and you have to go through the actual labor. You can get an epidural even if they don’t usually do it since the baby won’t survive anyway (but I didn’t). Afterwards they will let you see or hold the baby and when you go home they do a ceremony, and they wheeled the baby in a mini coffin through the hospital in front of everyone which I did not like. And you have to pay for cremation, about 80,000 yen.

    You have until 21 weeks, 6 days to decide. My doctor wrote on the forms it was a medical procedure for me or something so insurance and the 400,000 we got from the country covered it all. Make sure they don’t make it sound like a voluntary procedure.

    ​

    PS – all these people telling you to find a new clinic and get an abortion, well if you do that, make sure it’s an abortion rather than a birth. I mean you’ll be 18+ weeks, so I think you would have to give birth rather than have a “simple” abortion, but I might be wrong. In some countries they will do the abortion even late term but in Japan it seemed to be only done by inducing the early labor and the baby being stillborn.

32. I say this gently, as a mother of (soon to be four) whose husband is on board with whatever MY decision is in cases like this: don’t trust your husband to be your interpreter for the next appointment.

    I know this sounds pretty cold, but since you’re both at the split opinion stages, is there someone else, an unaffiliated party who could come in to interpret? I would be worried that husband may not directly tell you exactly what the doctor is saying and convey information properly. :-/

33. If you get stuck in being able to get the abortion, and can afford it, then travelling to New Zealand is an option *i think*. As a tourist you’ll need to pay about ¥120,000 but you don’t need anyone else’s permission. It’s accessible up to 20 weeks with little consultation, and then after with multiple consultations. As your child is at risk of Down syndrome this wouldn’t be an issue.

    https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/sexual-health/information-abortion

34. There’s some key questions here to clarify the path.
    Your husband doesn’t want to end this pregnancy because of his doubts regarding the accuracy of the test or he fears he can’t procreate again? Because if it is the latter, it means he wants to have a child of his loins more than having a healthy kid.
    And means that he puts his need to have a biological child with you over your opinion, regarding carrying/delivering/raising a child.
    If the argument was “I want this to be my kid no matter what” it is one thing—still shows what he wants is trumping what you want, despite you carrying the pregnancy; but “I want this to be my kid no matter what because IM AFRAID I CANT MAKE ANOTHER ONE (despite being only 50% of procreation process)” then it shows he puts his personal desires before his wife’s and child’s’ quality of life. The choice then would be have a kid with DS, none at all…or adopt or have an IVF with your egg only. “Oh but that’s expensive “—so is having a special needs child.

    In the end there is a big risk he is making this about himself, which is the wrong starting point for a father and a husband for the long term.

    On the other hand, you could test again and see the results of that, but alone. It is awful to think you should distrust your life partner with the interpretation but in this high stakes situation, a drop of distrust is enough to maybe poison the water. Make sure you fully understand the pregnancy is in the clear. You are there to “debunk” the DS possibility.

    Either outcome, if you stay together with this man, I strongly strongly suggest getting some counseling (I feel I am talking to a wall because I know it is very unlikely people do it). The fact that such a delicate situation with life long repercussions is stirring up selfishness, distrust, fear and possible resentment is if anything a big alarm sounding off. This isn’t about the pregnancy; but showing that you need to work on a healthier relationship.
    Overall:
    OP, I’m so so sorry you are in this predicament. Thankfully even without consent there are workarounds. Hopefully he does align to your wishes. Otherwise he would be forcing you to carry a pregnancy you don’t want. And it doesn’t matter if other people have their experiences with DS that are positive according to them. That is good to know and support after you have decided to pursue that path. Otherwise, people would just be projecting onto you, it is not about them, but about you, and no one should have to be sold on having a kid. It’s not a car, it’s not a house, it’s a person. It’s not a baby. It’s a full human being. You can’t just guilt anyone or pressure someone into having one.
    Let us know what happens OP, if possible. I truly wish you the best.

35. >he’s also significantly older than me and is afraid we won’t be able to conceive again

    If it was a natural conception and didn’t take many months of trying, there is probably no reason to think he might have gotten infertile in these last few months. Maybe you can ease his mind by reminding him that he did get you pregnant so recently.

    Him wanting another test to confirm the NIPT results before taking a drastic measure like an abortion this far along is not unreasonable.

36. First of all, I’m very sorry to hear this. It must be utterly devastating. Your husband has a right to voice his opinion but ultimately it’s your decision to continue with this pregnancy or not. Your body, your choice. Please don’t feel guilty if you don’t want to keep a baby with a high chance of Down syndrome. I did the NIPT test for exactly that reason. You might want to look into Facebook groups that focus on pregnancy in Japan where other women can help you. Wishing you all the best.

37. If you are in Osaka I can send you the adress where my wife did the 4D echo test.

38. Feel free to message me if you need help. I was in a very similar position last year. I didn’t do NIPT but I did do an amnio because our NT results were really bad and the dr told me it’s definitely a trisomy or congenital issue. I was told by my clinic that they will do it up to 20 weeks. The procedure that late is extremely costly as well. NIPT isn’t always accurate but it is somewhat reliable. The only way you will know for sure is if you do an amnio, but getting amnio results back here takes more time than other countries bc they send it out of Japan for testing. My results took like two weeks to get back….so I don’t really think that is a option for you.