For those in Japanese companies, where do YOU stand on the line of tolerating nonsense?

28 comments

1. Question things, all the time

   Trying to change things, once in a while, when in a not-so-serious discussion outside work env with my higher ups

   What i do, i don’t attend meetings that’s not so beneficial to me, stating that “I don’t think i have something to say in this and i have other meeting to attend so i’ll attend that one”

   Doing things mostly online certainly helps though

2. If you want to change the system, you have to beat the system from the inside. No one’s going to listen to a gaijin who “doesn’t know how things are done in Japan”.

   So be submissive, but continue to question and suggest changes to things in places where you have earned it.

3. You find Japanese who also don’t take as much as the others. Usually older, in their 40s, already made lower tier management, and just to the minimum required as they know promotion is off the table and that’s the only real way to earn big money.

   I knew a Japanese who always complained about how things were done. He never got promoted. Too much friction. You can complain and criticize once you are senior management (that’s all they seem to do) but until then better be constructive and work using “Nemawashi” rather than shout it out during a meeting.

   My own experience is I usually take pointless meetings as a nice break from sitting at my computer working. Let the brain unwind. Check a few emails while the pointless happens. I also refuse any very late meetings unless there is a really good reason.

   One time I did have to attend a late meeting and there was this utter pointless presentation about some other groups machine and the background and history. Totally irrelevant to 90% of the people in the meeting and it was going onto 7PM. It was supposed to be a sharing opportunity. I usually just accept it but this time I was so annoyed I basically said “what the hell is this? This is not an appropriate use of 15 peoples time after 6PM. Please finish it quickly”. Didn’t really do down well (although everyone else was thinking the same thing). I was planning to quit in a couple of month’s time anyway.

4. None of us will ever become Japanese so you’ll just have to find which battles you pick. While some themes are more common, you’ll find like in most places people in general are fucking annoying and culture just adds a twist to this human truth.

   I would say draw your boundaries and don’t let anyone step over them, but also live and let live. Don’t comment on other people’s cultural habits and ways of working if they don’t directly affect you and try to create understanding rather than disparaging co workers for doing things the way they’ve been brought up.

   My personal solution is I would never work for a Japanese company because I’m not a fan of feudalism and have nothing to prove. I would suggest your first step is to try to work for a global gaishikei before your skills atrophy too much. The solution to most things in Japan is to step around it not run head first into the wall.

5. Posts like this make me thankful that whenever a middle aged or older Japanese man is interviewing me, I never pass. (Have gotten jobs with younger Japanese people or foreigners of all ages)

   Maybe they see something in me that doesn’t fit with their showa style management.

6. >I at least know of two kinds of foreigners, the ones who blend in very well, are completely submissive and are considered Japanese (to a point). The other is one you often see here, absolutely resists everything and ends up in fights, quits, and you wonder how they got there in the first place.

   But why does everything need to be black/white? Can’t you be someone who both knows how to blend it AND knows how to change things? Otherwise, what was the point of hiring you if you were just going to act Japanese OR fight everything?

   I’ve been fortunate enough to be in companies that were very Japanese to their core, but still knew how to change. At my real estate job, we went from 8:25 to 19:00 *as a standard working day* to 9:00 to 18:00 and no overtime unless approved by a boss in less than a few months after I started. We eliminated daily meetings, changed them to weekly and set a time limit on them.

   I only quit because there was no way up for me there without getting a full real estate license, which is way too much work when you have a newborn kid.

7. > the ones who blend in very well, are completely submissive

   I think you can blend in well without being submissive? Most Japanese employees aren’t completely submissive either

8. I think it’s more how and when you do it that ends up mattering.

   If you’re bitching left and right about the Japanese way, it’s not a good look and it will only come and bite you in the butt, but it doesn’t seem like that’s what you’re doing.

   When something feels like it could be implemented better, it’s OK to mention it in a round-about way: “it would be nice if it were [insert alternative]”, especially if you can point out the benefit for the company. Presenting it lightly, with embarrassed laughter to boot, is another way. Not that I think it would change anything but…

   As for the late evening meetings (don’t we all love these?!): I’m pretty sure the only way is not to make a fuss about it, give an excuse if you have one, otherwise just say what you wrote above. If you don’t do it too often, it will just be understood as “foreigner nonsense”.

9. Its funny, I work in a school, which is supposed to be a super conservative place, but my school is liberal as all hell, especially our vice principal, once the clock passes 545pm she starts walking in circles forcing anyone who is still in the teachers room to explain why and if she thinks you dont have a good reason for being there she will send your ass home. Its great.

10. Set your boundaries early from the beginning, so they are clear and become an accepted fact.

    Going home early isn’t and shouldn’t be a foreigner thing, it should be an everyone thing. I close my calendar after 18:30 and if anyone tries to book something after that they know I won’t be there at that time.

    But one thing I tried also was I said to my team one week “hey let’s try to see if we can finish all meetings this week by 1600, it will be good for our health.” Everyone agreed and I even set a timer in each meeting. When the week was over I asked everyone to write in their closing reports how they felt regarding the meeting changes.

    Overwhelmingly positive response, and since then although I haven’t forced it, most meetings have ended before 1700.

    I also said very early on that I don’t put work on my personal phone, and implied that if the company want me to have a phone then it should be provided. I don’t have any of the teams apps or emails on my phone. While it’s inconvenient sometimes, it keeps me sane and some younger kohai have followed suit also.

11. I feel like you should. That’s ultimately healthy for everyone.

    Some Japanese may not like how things are done but they can’t easily question the status quo without sticking out. You have a built-in excuse of being a foreigner so it’s natural you question how things are done and it’s expected of you, to a degree. You’re ultimately helping your coworkers when you’re setting a standard of going home on time etc.

12. They can use my time as they like when they’re paying me. If they want to waste it on pointless meetings at the expense of something productive, that’s on them. After hours I’m gone unless there’s a good reason.

    I will suggest improvements and often get the green light to do them.
    Sometimes you have to push a few times, but if you get worked up into a rage over some trivial work shit trying to single-handedly chance Japan you’ve already lost the battle.

13. I always laugh at the “they will never treat you like you’re Japanese” comments. I have worked in places where they treat me “just like the Japanese.” That is the good news. The bad news is that they treated me just like I was Japanese. No gaijin card could be pulled. Not when they knew my whole adult life was here. No language or cultural mistakes applied. Fair enough.

    I changed to a place that was not 100% old-school. Better? Yes. Perfect? No. But I just am honest at this point. Not going to your fucking meeting as I am not in involved. I make up for it by making them money.

14. I feel like I’m the one that blends in but they also know that I do stuff that most Japanese people don’t do (leave at 5, take my full leave each year) and nobody has ever complained. If ever they need me for an emergency, they know I’ll be there.

15. I’m just tired of nomikais. I know it’s a team building thing but I really don’t enjoy alcohol or the pressure to drink. Doctors are some serious alcoholics here and I don’t want to drink that nasty ginger drink to avoid a hangover.

16. I worked in a school that paid far too little for the work required, had a clever little system to make us work without lunch breaks PLUS unpaid overtime basically every day, sometimes 4+ hours a day.
    Long story short I waited to the end of the school year and quit.

17. The scheduling a meeting late, I don’t get it. They schedule it ahead of time but outside of standard hours. No respect for people’s private time. Since Im new, I have declined some but also allowed some, like my one coming next week.

18. I’m the highest in my workplace, and those above me are like three prefectures away at best.

    Relatively low tolerance for bullshit but I know how to smile, nod and continue as usual so it hasn’t given me issues so far.

    I do complain with my coworkers all the time tho XD

19. I do whatever the fuck I want because the company is short staffed and they can’t afford to get rid of me. Worse comes to worse I can always get a new job

20. I worked for a global company (HQ in Europe) in Japan and it was one of my worst experiences and with a very „domestic“ mindset, I hated it, I was stressed and it made me physically and mentally ill. Now I work freelance for a traditional Japanese company and say what I want, do my thing and they don’t say anything. I am confident in what I can do and what I offer them, if they don’t like it, I am screwed, but they don’t know that. My husband also worked for a traditional Japanese company, but the CEO made everyone go home at 6pm. Peer pressure, subtle Japanese ways can be tiring, if I was still at the global company I would honestly not give a fuck, leave on time, ignore my passive aggressive managers and just not care. The funny thing is the HQ in Europe is amazing- work-life balance e.g. and it’s one of the top 10 companies to work for in that specific EU country. Just not the office in Japan I guess!

21. Every day is nonsense. Just make sure the money come on time and get that side hustle going. I ain’t fighting city hall just capitalizing on the inefficiency. Of course mileage may differ but this is Broadway baby put on a good show even if it is a 🤡 show

22. I can tolerate quite a lot but I was hired under certain conditions and if they just try to push me verbally to change my work time or so, I won’t comply and go home at around 6:15 or sometimes pretend to be busy till 6:39-45 if I’m feeling generous and have nothing to do at home.

23. I use chaotic compliance.

    If I am required to attend meetings I don’t really need to be a part of I just switch off my camera and go on mute.

    If I am eligible for overtime that I have to take but don’t need to justify, I take it but don’t work.

    If I have to make unnecessary reports, I just copy paste content or use chatgpt to inflate it to make it long and boring.

    I have done such a good job of chaotic compliance that they sometimes tell me that I am doing too good a job and don’t need to put in that much effort because they have difficulty keeping up.

24. I’ve been working in the same company for almost 8 years now. I would say 40% modern 60% traditional.

    I stop working at 6:01, my suggestions and requests are usually listened to and acted upon, and I can take days off whenever as long as I give enough notice in advance.

    But this all came after showing that I can do good work. I work fast and efficient, am punctual, and follow through.

    We had foreigners who wanted to gaijin smash two months in after they started working. Obviously that almost never went well.

25. I’m the only non-Japanese at a small Japanese publisher for 20+ years. Things are run, for the most part, with common sense. Anyone is free to voice their opinion on a rule, decision, policy, or project that we have. There are a few times when I’ve had heated discussions on certain business topics with workmates (junior and senior) or bosses but it never got personal. I’m known for convincing management to cut down on unnecessary meetings and making them shorter when we do have them.

26. I’d say I’m middle ground. But my workplace is pretty good too.

    If you act like a doormat you are losing one of your greatest strengths(that a lot of good employers do actually appreciate), speaking up and improving things where others are afraid to do it. I got a lot of good reviews for doing this alone. I’m just not obnoxious about it. I try to consider the positions of my colleagues and I try to leave them plenty of space to retain face. I don’t blame people for problems, and try to bring up the benefits of current practices while discussing why we should move to a different way(“this seemed like the right way to do xyz in light of the situation at the time, but in light of current findings perhaps we should do this instead”)

    To me the gaijin smash method is negative and forceful. It’s off putting and it will make others uncomfortable or even resentful. Always remember the people around you are human even if they don’t readily show their emotions

27. My boss wanted to change Monday meetings to Saturday to give management more time to do admin (!!) and announced this to everyone on Zoom.

    Me being the gaijin I knew I was the only one that could publicly say anything so said I thought this was not good for work-life balance. My concerns were acknowledged but dismissed. My 後輩 later approached me and said they appreciated that I spoke up for them.

    My colleague (Japanese) later managed to get our boss to reverse this decision. I begged him to teach me his ways but he just chuckled and said he was always good with diplomacy.

28. I’m not entirely sure how to answer this question, first of all because “nonsense” is subjective: their business culture may seem oppressive, absurd, and masochistic to *us*, but it makes sense to *them* and while we are often given considerable leeway, it’s not like being from another country gives us free reign to behave as we please in every scenario.

    I’ve spent most of my years here working for one Japanese owned and operated company or another with just a few exceptions.

    Some of those employers were awful, abusive, and stifling; others made me feel like I had the keys to the kingdom.

    It may surprise you to know one of my most frustrating and abusive employers was *foreign* owned and operated.

    As for my stance: I’m willing to tolerate things the company does that I disagree with so long as they are not breaking the terms of my contract or the law, but I should say I have also had to put up with some serious criminality for the sake of my visa. I have gone to the labor bureau to coerce an employer to follow the law once, and I have brought a lawyer to the immigration office to get my questions answered. Both were very effective.

    The employer I sicked the bureau on was refusing to provide proof of employment after signing a contract. They claimed they didn’t legally have to since I had only worked there for three months. This was incorrect, obviously, but they weren’t about to listen to a foreigner telling them what their laws are.

    I brought a lawyer to immigration to intimidate the racist scum that ran the office. It was the first time any of them ever gave me straight answers to my questions about how my applications were being evaluated. Actually, they didn’t answer *me*, they answered *the lawyer* who asked the same questions I asked verbatim.

    For many years I worked for cash at a bunch of different small companies, about half of it on the sly. It saved a lot of paperwork and some taxes on both sides, but in the end it would have been better for my career and immigration path to find a permanent contract much earlier rather than prioritizing freedom and income.

    I now find myself “permanently” employed, and I am on a path to permanent residency after nearly two decades of desperation. The salary is acceptable, I was able to negotiate a non-exclusive contract (I can work nights and weekends elsewhere for extra income) and I’ve been kept on despite giving the employer several serious headaches.

    On the other hand, although it has stopped now, for two years this employer was having most everyone in the company participate in some kind of money laundering. Most of the employees began receiving a small monthly bonus, credited as an inflation adjustment, but then we were asked to give some of the money back *in cash*, without any documentation provided (documentation was actively refused). The first story was that the money would go to monthly bonuses for employees that didn’t qualify for the inflation adjustment. A few meetings later, we were told the money was going into a mutual fund for company parties and such (which the owner had always paid for himself). This year I was asked to sign an addendum to my contract stipulating that my part of the mutual fund would be returned should I choose to terminate my contract early. There’s no documentation, internally or otherwise, about how much money each of us put into this fund; every month we were asked to repay a slightly different amount of money. Nearly all of the Japanese employees acted like it was nothing; none of them quit over it. One foreign employee did, and returned to her home country.

    I raised concerns with multiple managers, some of whom agreed it was sketchy, none of whom passed my concerns up the chain or did anything whatsoever. I considered going to the officials (labor bureau, police), but I need to hold this employment at least long enough to get my permanent residency, which has been quite a challenge for me.

    I am pretty sure the reason this has stopped (for me, at least) is that I was transferred to a different branch where foreign employees (who are all essential) outnumber locals. No one at this branch is aware of the policy at the other branches.

    In any case *I did get paid more* even after the repayments, so whatever, and it’s not like I have any proof or reason to believe I was complicit in money laundering *other than being from a culture where thinking like a criminal isn’t suppressed in the general population*.