I apologize if this is long- I haven’t been here long but I have been told already that japan has different views about love and marriage than what i’m used to, so to someone like me (female) it has only made me second think about dating in general. I haven’t really gotten around to dating much, so I can only really just go off on others stories until I find out for myself first hand.
I do want to point out i understand this is a communication issue and not something specific to men or women in japan as a whole. Western men aren’t exactly the perfect image of marital bliss just because of the societal and cultural differences that i’m more used to, but it still hits different the way these dynamics and problems have been handled in japan from what i can tell.
I try to see relationships as equal as i can. No strict focus on roles or gender expectations since that only brings hurt and resentment. I’m aware any women around the world may have no qualms with the more housewife/mother role, but to be forced/guilted into such a role isnt something i can’t get behind.
Im still young so I can still enjoy a lot of independence/more carefree living in some areas of general life, which I feel I can still have in some sense even as a married woman one day- only difference being I am no longer living for just myself or my needs/concerns. But the idea I could enter a marriage where I have to take on roles just because of my gender which only amplifies if i have kids is almost terrifying. I’m not even sure I want kids just because of society’s views and treatments of women who are mothers (frankly a lot of societies are like this let’s be real).
Women in western countries already feel miserable for being seen as “just a mom” but i don’t see that mentality shared in japan so far? From the few people i talked to about this it feels as if it’s expected. But that’s so scary to me. Western women try to find balance in their lives so that they still have their jobs, friends, hobbies and quality time with their partners with date nights etc, even as a married woman with kids. I have not heard one instance of a person in japan wanting a life like that after they were married and/or had kids. Sure it can be because work alone can prevent that, but the narrative that it’s non existent once kids are in the picture is something i took more than a shock to.
I don’t like the idea of being “just a mom” in the eyes of my husband, not having a job, I don’t even like the idea of bed sharing for years on end. Growing up women have shared Horrific stories of motherhood and part of it was not getting enough sleep when their kids could only sleep with them and all they wanted was two seconds away from them to get some peace. And from what i understand, there’s a good chance that even sharing the bed with kids and either taking away that privacy from the parents or even having dad sleep somewhere else all together can lead to a whole set of issues within the marriage. It’s scary how common the narrative seems to be ‘couple gets married then has a kid, suddenly the wife is totally different and is no longer the romantic partner the man married but just a mom or even seen as another family member, a more loveless/sexless marriage ensues because the mother is either too focused on the kids or the kid/work life prevents couple being more intimate or just enjoying each other’s company as a couple, couple starts to cheat on one another, stays together but unhappy just because they think it’s better for the kids.’ This is a very general and maybe exaggerated view of it, but the idea this has happened more than i can say doesn’t make the dating scene something so simple or fun if this could very well be reality.
I also don’t know if i can get around the fact people don’t even say “i love you”. I get it’s shown through action but it sounds more heartbreaking to think i’ll never hear that.
I also feel….almost selfish as a result? just for these cultural differences? just for thinking so differently about dating and romance and marriage than others. As if i am this double minority that doesn’t want to look forward to living like how others live. As if i’m this selfish gaijin with some hedonistic plan for how i want life and marriage to be- just because i want to be with a man who sees me as a romantic partner of equal standing and not just a woman who needs to adhere to cultural demands i may not like, or just because i don’t want to be “just a mom”.
You can’t exactly attempt to date seriously and avoid talks about marriage and kids in the future, so Please be kind but honest- do i have the wrong ideas of how things work? Does it seem I should just not date while in japan? Are there even people in japan who feel this way too? What about people who want marriage but not kids?
28 comments
You have the right idea but who knows, maybe you can find a foreign man or a Japanese guy with experience living outside in Japan, or even an open-minded one. It won’t be easy for sure though.
You can date seriously and talk about marriage and kids. “Nope, already been married. Not planning on doing it any time again soon, if ever. No kids, ever Only interested in someone who has a job and can take care of themselves financially.” .” I have had GFs who were totally fine with my position and others who were, “Sure. I understand.” (Back of their mind: I will change him. No, you won’t.)
I mean you’re stereotyping a whole population. While viewpoints like that are fairly common in Japan that’s not how EVERYBODY lives their life, and now what EVERYBODY thinks. I know plenty of women here who are married and some who have children as well and they still work, still have friends, etc.
I’m married and have a toddler and I have continued working part time since I finished childcare leave, and will soon start working a full time seishain position which my husband is very supportive of. He’s convinced I might even be better at it than him. We give each other little “days off” or a few hours off on certain days where one of us takes care of the kid and the other one can go do whatever, read alone in a cafe, go to the gym, dance class, watch a movie, etc. so that we can still have our own alone time and have hobbies.
It’s harder in general to meet up with friends, because we can’t be as spontaneous and have to plan a bit first usually to make sure it fits in our schedule, but it is possible if you try and your friends aren’t flaky and don’t suddenly cancel or change plans and don’t always try to invite you out the day of and actually proactively plan ahead a bit. Having family around helps as well, so it’s not all on you two as parents.
Also if you decide you don’t want kids at all there are also Japanese people who I’m sure don’t want kids and you can find a partner who doesn’t want kids and just not have them
Sounds like you want to find a partner. But are just kinda worried it’s going to be tough.
Well, it might be. But you have to just sorta understand that your life can go down multiple paths, and do your best to make sure those paths are all ok and fulfilling enough for you.
Know yourself and what you are unable to compromise on, and stick with that. Have hopes as well, but know what you might be flexible on. And I would suggest setting yourself up for a wonderful single life, and if someone enters the picture, “Great! Bonus to an ALREADY very good life!”
I remember watching a YouTube (Ted talk) from some woman who had a list of maybe 20-30 “non-negotiables” including things like “owning a boat”. And I felt it was very unrealistic. She wanted mr perfect and wasn’t willing to compromise.
A few years later, she compromised and dropped that list significantly. To her, after a few years, being in a relationship was more important than many other things on the list.
But she’s happy now.
TLDR: Have a fabulous independent life. Look at a relationship as a bonus to your already awesome life. If you find that you want a relationship bad enough, really do some soul searching and figure out non negotiables, and understand that while wants in a partner are great. But if they’re not NEEDS, and your wanting a relationship, stay open to folks who may not have all the wants, but still fulfill your NEEDS.
EDIT: Found her initial list. To me and many others it seems unreasonable. But eventually she started crossing things off of it according to importance until she found someone and got married.
https://preview.redd.it/hyooh2nglbnb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5eb977766d77662aba5796daee776d1925be1289
Get off the internet and interact with real people. There are 126 million people in Japan, and guess what, they all have their own beliefs and viewpoints.
I know many moms in Japan who have happy lives, some even still have jobs and careers…gasp! To dismiss an entire country for your narrow minded view, especially when you haven’t been here long, is completely ridiculous.
Date but be careful with marriage and kids. Divorce and custody laws overwhelmingly favor the Japanese spouse. Even beyond the law, a Japanese spouse can basically fake your signature at city hall to divorce you and take the kids free and clear. Hell hath no fury like a nihonjin scorned.
You can be critical about assumed gender roles in a society but this post and your other post on offmychest comes off incredibly judgmental. It’s no surprise to see you hint elsewhere that you’re a Christian. (Yeah, I went there, sorry not sorry.)
Your view of the Japanese family is dated. Birth rates are lower than ever. There’s more double income households than ever. More unmarried women than ever.
You’re not going to change the behavior of the women around you, but you’re living with them, not amongst your western peers. So don’t spend so much time on this me vs them mentality that you seem to be fostering. What you should be worrying about is: given the wage gap and discrimination that women face in the workplace, do you have a career path plotted that will get you the economic independence from and equality to your potential partner?
I honestly was never really looking for a relationship when I found my husband. Before he met me, he never traveled outside of Japan and he didn’t really know any foreigners. We took our time getting to know each other and our expectations for the relationship.
He tells me every day “大好き” “I love you” and “愛している”. We have a beautiful child that we both raise equally. Other than the childcare leave I took, I can’t tell you who has changed more diapers/done more feedings. We both do housework, he does things he’s better at and I do things I’m better at. He supports me working and even cheers me on towards me goals.
Dating in general is hard and this isn’t a Japanese thing. But if those things are important to you, you shouldn’t settle. There are plenty of people out there looking for a partner, not someone to keep the home fires warm. I know way too many people who marry the first person that gives them the time of day and a good chunk of them are already divorced or miserably together for the children.
As an Asian-American guy who grew up in both Asia and the US, I completely understand your point of view. The western and asian cultures have different views when it comes to dating, marriage, and how a family should be raised.
I personally think there is nothing wrong with either view. You just need to find one that complement and match your values. In Japan however, it maybe a bit more difficult for you since traditional gender roles are much more evident(from what I have seen). This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t date though. You can still find a bf, have fun, and if it starts to become serious then both of you can start to think deeper. Dating is such a crapshoot and you either will get lucky and find the right one right off the bat or go on hundreds of dates/1-2 divorces before you settle with the right one. Don’t overthink it too much before you even go on dates… There likely to be some periods of ghosting/things not working out before the marriage/family talk come up.
” Im still young so I can still enjoy a lot of independence/more carefree living ”
your youth is your best asses:
1. you can use it for “**here and now**” (enjoying life)
2. or you can invest it for **later** (let’s say, 30-40 years from now when you will get old) to have children (and having a family is just a means to have and raise children)
Exceptions exist. If you want to deal with trying to find them is the whole point imo. It’s the whole point in dating in general imo.
Hey OP, I have also struggled a lot here (as a male), so I can empathize. I do not want kids, which makes my dating pool tiny. The example you present of marriages is way more common than people would like to admit, but not the rule. Your fears are justified and valid.
I do not think you need to stay single, but you will have a hard time finding someone that makes you feel safe that any of those issues will not come up. And even then, nobody can predict the future. Also remember that people that are in a perfectly good relationship with their husbands and kids are very unlikely to post horror stories online, right? So the stuff you see is all of the people that have a shitty life.
The other thing I noticed as I attempted to date is that 99% of the time I could not even mention the fact that I did not want kids (to a person whose profile stated they did not want any, or was undecided) without getting immediately ghosted. It makes dating a nightmare.
>Just because i want to be with a man who sees me as a romantic partner of equal standing and not just a woman who needs to adhere to cultural demands i may not like
I feel the exact same way as you. I do not want to be a wallet, or be an accessory for a woman here, or what have you. There are people that want the same thing you do, but it will take you time to find them.
I think that you should live the life you want. It is very easy to fall for peer pressure, but in your case you are aware of all of these things that you DO NOT want. Please do not fall and do something that you know will make you miserable.
>do i have the wrong ideas of how things work?
You are being a bit fatalist, in the sense that not all cases are like what you describe. But they are not uncommon at all either.
>Does it seem I should just not date while in japan?
In my experience, dating sucks horribly no matter where you are at if you are planning to use an app. My advice is to expand your network, and have people introduce you to others. It takes a long time and it may not even give you good results, but the misery of apps is worse.
>Are there even people in japan who feel this way too? What about people who want marriage but not kids?
This is me. There are tens of us!
Foreign woman married to a Japanese man, one child and one more on the way. Have been here just over 8 years, 10years together, 2 married.
Yes, some stereotypes and mindsets exist, but I’ve never felt pressured to have kids by anyone other than my MIL lol, and we mostly ignore her anyway. We naturally fell into more traditional roles but that’s our personalities and we’re comfortable. We say I love you multiple times a day, always have. He’s not the most snuggly, but he’s attentive and loving in other ways. Work encouraged me to take a full year off after my first kid, and helped me out during maternity leave with a bunch of stuff, then made sure I’ve been able to manage both childcare and full-time work on my terms. Doing the same so far with #2!
Men who want a traditional housewife and mother exist here as they do elsewhere. So do men who don’t want kids, those who want to share household duties, etc. Get out and date, be open with your expectations and your ideals, and see what sticks. It won’t hit with everyone, but that would happen literally anywhere.
I always felt that my husband checks so many boxes as a traditional Japanese guy, but after reading this post, I guess I have the least Japanese partner of all lol
He’s the one who says “I love you” a hundred times a day, he’s helpful around the house (at least on his days off work), and he is so chill with my lack of joshi ryoku haha. I think there are all kinds of men here. I hope you don’t write them all off too early 🙂
Don’t have kids? No one is forcing you to. You can be completely happy and fulfilled without reproducing.
My husband is Japanese but he is actively involved in childcare and housework and has never had any issues with me having a job. We both were on the fence about having kids but decided to have one after we got married. He tells me he loves me every day. There are ups and downs but we generally have a happy marriage.
My biggest problem with being married to a Japanese man is the work culture here. I can avoid most of it since I’m a foreign woman with a young child, but it’s not so easy for him to turn down overtime or weekend work. He is hardly ever home. He worked a more flexible job when we first got together, and he promised he’d never work long hours, but once our daughter was born he felt like he had to get a better job to better provide for her. It is stressful for me to do the bulk of the housework and childcare on top of my full-time job, but I think the “triple burden” is a big problem for working women everywhere.
Are you me? It’s so weird how you just wrote letter by letter how I felt lol
I dated a few Japanese guys and realized fairly early that it wasn’t going to work, our views in relationships and life were too far away from each other. Luckily I found a perfect guy, he’s a foreigner too but he’s my perfect match. So don’t worry, you’re not wrong for wanting what you want, you just need to look for a good match for you, they exist!
I married a Japanese man and he is nothing like that. He wants me to work but he also says that if he can take care of us both financially I don’t need to if I don’t want to work. (I would love to be a housewife and mom actually but at the same time I want to earn money too) so he lets me decide. He always says “I love you.” and even though he wants kids he said from the beginning that if I don’t want to we don’t need to have kids in the future. I was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and that was also a reason where he said that for him my health is more important than having a child so if I don’t want to stop my medication it’s ok. Also said I don’t need a breast reconstruction ect… My husband is very open minded and understanding. So what I want to say is that there are Japanese men who are not like the typical stereotype you have in mind!:) It just needs some time to find the right person sometimes.
Seems you’ve thought about this a lot. But it seems you’re just thinking and not experiencing for yourself. Go meet some men. If you meet 100 Japanese men I’m sure you’ll get a lot with the ‘traditional’ thinking, but I guarantee you’ll also meet just as many with more values in line with your own – especially the younger guys who you’ll be interested in anyway. And if they aren’t suitable, quickly move on and meet another one.
I would like to hear though what you have read or who you have heard from to make you write such strong statements like these from?
people don’t even say “i love you”.
enter a marriage where I have to take on roles just because of my gender.
I have not heard one instance of a person in japan wanting a life like that after they were married and/or had kids
it’s non existent (jobs, friends, hobbies and quality time with their partners) once kids are in the picture
Lastly, is this comment about Japan? Because this could be any western society…
‘It’s scary how common the narrative seems to be ‘couple gets married then has a kid, suddenly the wife is totally different and is no longer the romantic partner the man married but just a mom or even seen as another family member, a more loveless/sexless marriage ensues because the mother is either too focused on the kids or the kid/work life prevents couple being more intimate or just enjoying each other’s company as a couple, couple starts to cheat on one another, stays together but unhappy just because they think it’s better for the kids.’
Don’t overthink real or stereotyped cultural differences. Language and cultural issues are a factor in a marriage or relationship with a Japanese person but it ultimately comes down to who you are as people. Compatibility as individuals is the make or break issue, IMO. Don’t isolate yourself, go out and meet people, and don’t get involved with anyone you’re not comfortable with. You never know when or where you might meet the right person for you.
why not just… discuss your concerns with men before you get intimate with them?
Just like there are people in western cultures who have these traditional views of marriage – there are also people in Japan who hold similar views. But this DOES NOT mean that every single Japanese person holds those same views. At all.
Try not to stereotype people based on their race.
Go out and meet people. In real life. And get to know them as an individual. Their race and culture is a part of what makes their character – but it isn’t all of them.
You WILL meet like-minded individuals who share the same views as you or are willing to listen, learn, and understand your views.
I’m a foreign female married to a Japanese male who has never lived/studied abroad.
We both work full-time and I have no intentions to stop working.
If we were to have children, I intend to keep working and my husband has no issues with that.
What is your line of work? Is it enjoyable? Do you have to put long hours in? Well paid?
TLDR, reeks of main character syndrome. Many awesome married couples exist in Japan. Try living it before basing life off Reddit opinions and advice, geez.
I am going to be honest, brief, and hopefully kind.
You have a lot going in that head of yours! Take a deep breath. Some points –
* Best thing my authoritarian mom (born 1939 btw) ever said to me was, “you don’t have to get married – I will never pressure you about that. It’s your life”. She was pressured to marry a wealthy farmer in the rural US in the 1950s so…
* Just because you get married, doesn’t mean you have to fit some mainstream description of marriage roles
* Having a child is hard for like 4 years. For some women I know, they actually loved the infant/toddler years. I did not. I am a guy btw, but was the primary caregiver I guess you could say because my wife’s company was horribly rigid and I was consulting. From 4+ though? I have really enjoyed it. So glad I had a little boy.
Find the right person for you. Define what you want out of your life. And marry someone compatible on these things – sex, finances, children ideas, religion, family. Don’t sweat the small stuff.
Good luck!
I think your worries are well founded given how common they are here. Not the rule as there are plenty of exceptions and the culture does seem to be shifting, but your mileage will definitely vary and depend entirely on any partner you choose (or not choose).
There is no necessity to fall in love with a Japanese man just because you live in Japan.
Some foreigners are married to other foreigners.
I also think that a full-time housewife in today’s Japan is impossible to live with unless the man’s income is quite wealthy.
To be brutally honest it seems like you’re too young / immature to know what you want.
Wife and I both took 6 months off for our kid and now both work full time and split housework.
Kids are difficult and become your life and if you are a great parent you WANT to spend you spare time with them, if you aren’t then you have to get over it.
None of this has anything to do with Japanese people.