I have been learning the best I can for 8 months and any sort of immersion is still too difficult, is that normal?

6 comments

1. Well the first question is, how long did you study each day? its a big difference if you studied 30-60 min a day or 2-4 hour a day, so maybe you arent that much behind as you may think.

   ​

   Most beginner underestimate Grammar, even if you would know all words in a sentence, if you dont know the grammar used, you wont get the meaning, you can just guess what the sentence could mean, depending on what words were used. This is especally crucial if you want to consume native media, as they use all kind of grammar and more complex structures.

   And as far as I know duolingo does a very bad job at “teaching” grammar so youre not only missing vocab for the content, but also grammar.

   Imo textbooks are the best ressource for grammar, but as you stated you cant afford one at the moment, you could try to use a online guide like tae kims grammar guide or find a free genki pdf online.

   ​

   Vocabwise, you could skip on anki/SRS, but this would be very inefficent at a low vocabulary, because language aquisition by immersion works better the more words/grammar you already know.

   Textbooks got a vocab list each chapter, and you can learn the words in(atleast a litte) context, so if you cant find a free online pdf or maybe one at your local libary, you could maybe find a very cheap used one online if youre lucky.

   ​

   Also i dont think youre a lost case, you maybe just didnt find the right method for you yet, or maybe you just learn a little bit slower as others, but this wont change the fact that you will eventually learn the language. You could maybe try pomodoro as you stuggle to concentrate.

2. You could try jpdb.io and use a premade deck of something you want to watch/read that has a low difficulty and go through it chronologically while also trying to go watch/read it

3. This is normal.

   No matter what anyone tells you, or what achievements they try to flaunt, 8 months isn’t a lot of time in the language.

   As far as Duolingo goes, the hate seems to be dying down little by little. Duolingo IMO is really good at progressing in a gradual manner. The nature of it is very much in the vein of comprehensive input, and honestly… having started before apps existed… that’s something I haven’t seen in any of the apps that have come out before it.

   The other thing is, regardless of whether you use Duolingo, or a different traditional learning resource, the language is altered and worded to best initiate an English speaker.

   That is to say at best… it’s not totally natural Japanese… and at worst, it’s English spoken in Japanese words.

   **BUT THAT’S OK** because otherwise it would be much harder for us to grasp the language at all. It’s AAAALLLLLLL baby steps. But this is part of the reason why even if you’re good at traditional learning materials and know your stuff backwards, forwards, and inside out, you may still come to a dead standstill with native media.

   Also I totally feel you on that “I can’t concentrate on other apps” thing. Memrise, despite having different activities to do… still feels and acts too much like a flashcard system.

   And that’s not even totally the issue, I think part of it is how often these things just don’t build up. They give you a new word, and an example sentence full of words you don’t know and expect that to do something for you.

   ANYWAY. Vocabulary issues — I can relate to this. Once I got into the later leaves on Duolingo I stopped being able to retain new words. Largely, I think, because even if they’re common I just didn’t have the need for them really. I don’t remember the word for laundry for instance. Or one of the later classroom bubbles with “document” “essay” etc. It just doesn’t apply to me.

   Regardless of what we consciously think, I think our brain categorizes things as useful or not. And if your brain is like “I use the word ‘laundry’ like never…” regardless of whether or not you consciously are like “Laundry! That’s a needed word! I do laundry every day! Laundry is a large part of my life, so it’s an important word” You’re not going to remember it.

   I HATE Anki… I’ve never been good at flash cards… and I like the idea of Memrise… I’ve tried to make my own decks in Memrise… I’ve tried really hard to use Memrise… memrise and I just don’t mesh. It is what it is. I’ve been at this a long time… sometimes like relationships you’re just not compatible with these things.

   You sound like you’re at a half-boiled potato point… too good for apps… but not good enough for media… and the first thing that comes to mind is “I need more vocabulary” and you try to learn more vocabulary, fail, hop apps, try again, fail, hop apps, learn some words, go back to media, find you’re lacking in vocabulary…

   I’ve found that vocabulary in learning resources, and vocabulary to consume media, DON’T overlap very well.

   There are tens of thousands of words out there!! The odds are the ones you need are at like… the bottom of the 6K word pile if they’re there at all. :C Boo.

   Which also causes the feeling like no matter how many words you learn, you still haven’t learned enough.

   You’ve learned plenty…. for the topic of your study… which is traditional study. When changing genres you’re always going to encounter a whole lexicon of new words. You’re just changing genres. You’ve mastered your first one! Congrats!

   But it also leaves you with the feeling that you should be this proficient in the rest.

   > but after months and months of doing the very best I can still not being able to understand anything besides a word every 2 sentences in level 0 children’s books is somewhat demotivating.

   So this is… probably less that you don’t have the vocabulary… and more that you don’t have the comprehension skills.

   “But I’m really good at understanding the example sentences in my coursework”

   That’s because it’s very close to natural Japanese… but it’s not. It’s hard to explain, because even I can’t pinpoint how, or why, or where exactly coursework Japanese and natural Japanese differ… but they are far enough apart that going from coursework to even children’s level 0 graded readers are going to kick your ass for a minute.

   So when I jumped in… and pick whatever you want… I started with posts on Hellotalk, twitter feeds, and Nintendo Switch games… and no matter how short the sentence, and regardless of whether or not I knew ALL the words… I just could not understand it.

   **So here’s some options**

   **first** Practice reading sentences backwards… starting at the end of a sentence and working to the front.

   This is some advice I found somewhere that helped quite a bit at the beginning. It puts part of the sentence “in the right order” for English speakers.

   Eventually you won’t need to do that but it’s a good starting practice.

   **secondly** utilize Google Translate (or DeepL, whichever). Throw the sentence in… and then STUDY both sentences.

   See if you can work out how the words work together to get from the original sentence to the google translation.

   GT isn’t perfect, but it’s often close enough to push you in the right direction. Especially at this stage.

   Building up reading comprehension is a toughie, that’s why we all have reading classes and comprehension tests in school.

   **third** on the vocabulary aspect, I’ve had a lot of luck with looking up every word I don’t know. (and every grammar point, but mostly I just need words). I don’t tend to remember them the first time I look them up.
   Or the second.
   Or the third.
   Or the fourth.
   But eventually I see the most common words enough to learn them.
   I don’t take notes (well unless I’m having a bad retention day… I’ll wrote or type memorize… but I never go back to them), I don’t make flash cards… I just look up the words as quickly as I can, and I continue on.

   The only real caveat to that is, I feel like pop-up dictionaries are a little too easy… there’s a step lacking in there with a pop-up which makes it too easy to look up the word, and too easy to forget it… maybe because with Takoboto or Jisho I actually have to put the kanji I don’t know together, or otherwise type in the hiragana word. It makes it sort of like wrote memorizing.

   Like I was saying though, I’ve had a lot of luck learning and retaining a LOT of new words by just looking them up as I consume media. It isn’t instantaneous, but the added context and the perceived NEED to know even more obscure words makes it easier.

   Let’s take 様子. In the memrise deck this word VEXED ME SO BAD. Saw it hundreds of times NEVER GOT IT. Then I played through Pokemon. It’s a word used when your pokemon evolves… Saw it once, never forgot it again.

   So in media, each genre, each episode, and each individual piece of media comes with a core vocabulary. Things in the same genre will overlap some vocab, things in general will overlap some vocab a little. But they ALL come with their own specific core vocabulary.

   That vocabulary will repeat early, and it will repeat often. Those are the words you’re really going to gain by going through and looking up all the words you don’t know. Everything else (and that’s A LOT of words BTW) aren’t going to be as necessary and you should expect to forget them totally. But they aren’t the most important words anyway.

   You should still look up everything as you go, or most everything, so you can follow the story (it’s OK to still have some ambiguity as long as you get the gist), but don’t expect to retain any words that don’t repeat a TON. They don’t matter. You’ll probably learn them in some other piece of media.

   **finally** Every time you change media, or change genre, your proficiency is going to fall back some amount, because you’ve moved on to something new.

   With traditionally learned words you’re most prepared to consume slice of life stuff first.

   Be aware that adding in ANY specialty, no matter how slight, is going to throw you for a loop.

   Carmen Sandiego is a kid’s show… but it is a crime show, and talks a lot about geography… and those two things will really screw you up. You don’t appreciate what children know until you try to watch a child’s show.

   So if you’re struggling ask yourself “What themes are in here?” I thought I was doing well with Death Note for a while, and then I noticed I would go from understanding it well, to understanding NONE OF IT AT ALL. It was really upsetting to suddenly have my whole language ability drop out from under me. (at the time I was listening with my tablet screen down while I worked at the office pre-covid)… so then at home I started watching… and I realized my language ability was dropping at parts where the cops were involved or Light was talking about legal things.

   So yeah. Bear that in mind, try those out. DO NOT BURN YOURSELF OUT!! If you can only do this stuff for 30 minutes, do it for 30 minutes. If you can only do it for an hour, do it for an hour. If you need to skip days, skip days. Eventually your tolerance, your skill, and your stamina will improve.

   And most importantly, be kind to yourself! You haven’t hit a wall, it just takes a different approach to get over this hill.

   Good luck! Sorry for the novel!

4. How much are you actually trying to immerse? I get the sense that you’ve been placing a huge emphasis on trying to consciously study / conceptualizing how you’re *supposed* to understand the language instead of just sitting down and trying to understand the language.

   You need to get it through your head that sitting down and listening to what feels like gibberish for 3 hours straight isn’t a waste of time. You literally cannot possibly hope to become fluent if you don’t go through that stage for many months before you start becoming able to properly understand your immersion contents.

   “You” don’t really *do* anything when you’re trying to immerse (except for when you stop reading/pause video playback to look up words and readings). All you do is sit there and observe the culmination of your subconscious’s attempt to make all the immersion you’ve consumed up till that point enjoyable. The more you learn to let go and stop *trying* the easier and more enjoyable the process will be. The parts of your mind that do language acquisition are almost entirely subconscious. These parts of your mind are quite literally *not you*. So stop scolding yourself for under performing.

5. Do you have a computer? If you do, you can install yomichan can look up words with a pop up dictionary. Please quit duolingo, it isn’t an effective use of time and you can learn Japanese completely free. I recommend you read this site https://learnjapanese.moe/. It’s a bit outdated and cringe, but its what got me to actually start watching and reading native Japanese content. It also have a link to heaps of other great resources.

6. I’m learning for more than 4 years now, I have almost the N3 level (which is quite a victory for me) and I am still struggling with native content, being anime or manga (I’m not even talking of light novel or newspapper).

   That’s perfectly normal. Learning Japanese is a marathon. You go for it for years, there is no shortcut and only one solution – studying (by immersion or other ways)