I had dinner and drinks with a Japanese friend of mine last night and we got into a discussion about living costs and how being ‘middle class’ in Japan nowadays is on a thin red line, with a real risk of crossing into potential poverty (his opinion). We are both relatively well off with upper-management jobs, but he mentioned that many employees under his wing have been hinting or directly asking for an increase in compensation (during performance interviews, etc.) in terms of COL expenses and that things were getting ‘tight’ and stress was mounting due to a variety of factors. Most of these people are making 6-7m a year and they may or may not be the sole provider of their respective households.
I had always thought that 4-5m would be middle class, and anything above that would be upper-middle (including the employees mentioned above). Anything more than 10m could arguably be upper class. It seems that the country has avoided the super inflation debacle in many western countries and that the crux of the issue, affordable housing, is something that Japan has done very well for its residents. Therefore, until now, I had thought that a 5m income was sufficient to raise a family, own a home in the suburbs and live comfortably. I already know that things like having children, being dual-income, being married or single, lifestyle choices, personal opinion and so on, are major factors that can alter how people view this topic.
Any thoughts or opinions on this topic are appreciated as it isn’t something I have thought about in recent memory. Thank you for your time.
41 comments
IMO for Tokyo middle class households are 5m-10m. Upper middle 10m-15m. Above that is upper class.
My impression is that the ‘middle class’ line in Tokyo is around Y8 million in annual income, Y10 million is a nice round number and tends to be viewed as upper-middle class.
I recall reading somewhere that something like 80% of people in Japan think they’re middle class. It’s partially true – ie, income disparity is lower in Japan than the US / UK for example. And also some successful marketing by the Jpn gov’t that has everyone convinced people richer (or poorer) don’t exist.
I see you’re in Fukuoka. 5m is middle class here and even with a child can afford to own a home, take a few domestic trips a year, etc…
It will be a bit different in Tokyo and probably a few other bigger cities though.
Well it really depends on how define “middle class” right?
Is it average income? In which case the median income would be middle class. Some kind of arbitrary standard of living? Then you’re going to have to be more specific with what you consider middle class.
Are you considering middle class to be able to support a family of 4 on 1 income?
I don’t think 4-5 mil was ever middle class here.
It’s the average income, but that’s an average that includes people who are working part-time and those who are upper management.
Schools cost money here. Juku costs money. Most parents send their kids to juku. Many of them get money from grandparents to help with school expenses. Maybe that’s why it might appear that someone would be okay with 4 mil.
But if a family doesn’t have grandparents who can help with those expenses and doesn’t have grand parents who can help watch the kids, I mean, childcare costs, too. Clothes cost money. Having a car and doing the shaken or whatever costs money.
When people take out loans to buy homes, they may often be using their bonus to pay a large portion of the loan.
4 mil might be fine for someone who lives in the countryside, has no debt, and is surrounded by family who are farmers or something.
A lot of Japanese media, if you don’t watch, has shows aimed at housewives on the topic of how to use food scraps to make more food. People aren’t using the tops of daikon to make soups because that sounds like fun. It’s a way to get every last use out of a food item because money is tight.
I don’t know what “comfortable” means to you, but going to five different supermarkets with a kid to find the cheapest groceries and turning to grandparents to help pay for a kid’s education doesn’t sound “comfortable” to me, in the context of a developed nation.
4mil as a single person is tough. Especially if you have any debts or if you want to have a good amount of savings.
This is where all the japanlifers who live off of dust and carrots from a veg wagon come in to say that they make 10 yen a year and have 10 million in savings and anyone who can’t do that just doesn’t have a budget and doesn’t meal prep. And then the thread turns into a bunch of guys trying to impress each other with how cheap they can be. Which, for the average Japanese family, is not an indicator of a good life, imo.
I used to get 6 m in hand per year. Felt like lower middle class. No home no car rented cheap ur apartment 😂. But it was ok.
Idk about others, but personally when I still earned around 5million in Tokyo I didn’t feel as a middle class at all. I didn’t live paycheck to paycheck but I also couldn’t afford many things. It’s enough for a single person like me, but it’d be difficult to have 5million single income for a family with a kid.
My family income is about 6.5 million in a medium city.I feel very middle class.. I think I’m incredibly frugal and I enjoy living modestly. We never buy the best that we could. Our house is a step down. Our cars are too.. I penny pinch everything. Always looking for the cheapest anything… However, I enjoy saving and investing. I think in 5-10 more years, I’ll loosen up a bit.
10m is still middle class, probably upper-middle. In Tokyo at least. You’re still going to be in a pretty modest home if you’re anywhere central. You can be free of financial stress but you’re probably still not traveling first class on flights(unless that’s a strangely high priority for you)
5m is a livable wage but it going to be a long commute into work if you live in an actual house, and with costs of kids I’d assume it gets pretty tight, especially when you consider things like saving for retirement and childrens tuition costs for Juku which recently feel nearly expected. It’s doable but it’s definitely going to be tight.
Japan hasn’t been hit by super inflation, but assuming you live in Tokyo you’ve definitely felt real inflation, in house costs, service costs, food costs, and it’s a lot higher than the raises many companies are putting out so I’m not surprised your friends employees feel they’re going backwards
Does owning property factor in?
Edit: DISPOSABLE income, not gross income. I was wrong, as indicated by u/kansaiki below and on another comment further down. Sorry for the misinformation.
Middle class are households earning between 75% and 200% of the median (not mean!) (EDIT: *DISPOSABLE*) household income.
In 2018 the median (*DISPOSABLE*) income was 2.53 million yen, which would put middle class as between 1.90 and 5.07 million yen, accounting for 74.2 of the population.
Source: [https://www.jil.go.jp/english/jli/documents/2023/044-01.pdf](https://www.jil.go.jp/english/jli/documents/2023/044-01.pdf)
This goes to show how out of touch with reality most ~~rich countries immigrants~~ expats are.
My favorite kind of thread where everyone and their mother make 15m.
Class has nothing to do with your salary. It’s perfectly possible to be an upper class person living in poverty. You mean ‘ middle income’, ‘low income’ etc.
It’s so weird how skewed some of these replies are.
5 million yen per year (single income) is definitely middle class and aligns with the average salary. It’s quite easy to live on 3-4 million, especially if you’re frugal.
Dual income at 10 million is doing quite well. You can definitely raise a family, own an inexpensive home, etc. on this amount.
EDIT: And people really need to stop throwing around the word “poverty.” You have no idea what true poverty is. Living in a 1K and making smart purchases isn’t “poverty” level. You guys are living in another universe.
What the Japanese in general like to refer to as `middle class` is def not in some other developed countries especially ones like the USA, UK and Australia. The old stereotype of Japan is a middle class country seems just that to me, an old stereotype.
For example, hourly wages and salaries for many jobs in the UK and Australia including in the service industry are way higher than in Japan. I`ve lived in both those countries for work purposes and Japan doesn`t come near the standard of living in terms of wages and salaries. South Korea was even cheaper than Japan when I lived there – the money classes of Seoul are the exception, not the rule – but from what i`ve heard, in some cases wages and salaries surpass those in Japan.
Even if you take away the fact that middle class in my home country of the USA is more middle class for real in terms of housing space, household goods and appliances, real backyards and car ownership, many of the Japanese who refer to themselves as `middle class` don`t fit that category in terms of salaries. You also have to look at the city hall and tax office guidelines in Japan on what constitutes a salary that is relatively privileged when it comes to forcible debt repayments to those authorities.
A few foreigners I knew in Tokyo before and during Covid found that the 3 million yen, roughly 30,000 bucks`s salary per year they were making the year before, was seen by city hall and the tax office as enough to justify not delaying payments tho their incomes had
Sorry, couldn`t finish as accidentally hit some button. To continue `had sharply dropped`. They were told that 3 million yen was an average salary and they wouldn`t get any kind of decreased payment scheme or delays. It also happened to Japanese people too.
This amount of 3million yen is close to what people on welfare in the UK and Australia get with all the extras factored in like cheap or no public transportation fares, utilities allowances, special benefits etc. It`s considered just about poverty line income in those societies but in Japan it`s an average salary.
All these people here reporting from their own bubbles. I’m on 3.7m a year (researcher at a major university), so is my partner (hospital work, sounds like a middle class job to me). In central Tokyo. Still alive, and able to have plenty of fun, go ski etc. Not feeding a family anytime soon though.
Most of my acquaintances make similar money. (craftsmen, police, nurses etc)
I think it all comes down to how inflation has influenced the cost of necessities and luxuries differently. This is just my experience, but once you go past the threshold of “I can afford all necessities without worrying at all,” the distance till middle class looks a lot shorter than it was in Europe. Again, just my experience.
That being said, even here in the sticks (rural Tohoku village), 4-5m is obviously a good salary, but if you have kids, you won’t be able to afford overseas trips every year or a golf membership.
A close example I have is this now retired man who put two kids through college on one income while enjoying the occasional rolex, a good car, a few Montblancs, and, of course, the ponies. This man was saying (bragging, to be exact) that in the ’90s, including bonuses et al., he used to make north of 10m. In today’s money that would be, what, 12m?
Never lived in Tokyo but from the impression I get when I go there for work I assume you’d have to multiply that number by at least 150% to get the same level of luxury.
I think the old guard that runs Japan are quite happy to see the trade off in prosperity for maintaining what they perceive as Japan’s traditional qualities since they themselves are already wealthy and won’t suffer from any impoverishment. I can’t think of any other reason for 40 years of malaise with the country still pushing back against developments in tech and modernisation in finance especially. It’s still the country of a 1000 little roadblocks designed to keep people from striking out on their own.
I make 3M which is pretty much only covering our place and most bills. Thank god my husband is paid in USD that’s the only reason we can save anything or explore Japan.
Did you grow up in the 70s to think you can survive with $50K a year single income and buy a house?
Assuming that the person lives in Tokyo, middle class in my books starts around 8-9M, and phases into upper class around 20M.
You can live, even somewhat comfortably, with less, but for me part of being middle class is having a few years’ expenses in savings, and more in investments.
Middle class in America means more money (income to provide for a family of 4) and more problems (debt; big toys; rarely a positive cash flow).
Does it mean the same thing in Japan? I think so. The big expenses are different (juku, etc.) and the home prices are higher, resulting in negative cash flows like their Western counterparts.
In 2023, this is getting worse because of inflation, which has been up at least in double digits, depending on what you buy. Meanwhile, salaries stay the same. So, it’s only logical for Japanese to start asking for a raise, just to try and fill some of the gap that inflation is causing. What they don’t understand is that even a solid and steady 10% raise a year won’t fill the gap. Only a higher income will do that, which many are not disciplined enough to chase.
I’m on 9M and my wife is 5M and we live well, but as others have said, the cost of having kids, and rising costs is getting rough. We eat well, and don’t go out often, and we have plenty to save. I wouldn’t class ourselves as upper class/upper middle but rather middle class.
Upper class Is when you don’t need to check the prices 🤣
Same everwhere in world. There is the upper class and the peasants. No middle class any more.
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My wife and I make at or around 10 million. We have kids and a condo to pay off, and while we’re definitely not struggling, I don’t see us as upper class at all. Maybe upper-middle in terms of life here, as I can afford to make purchases in excess of 1 million without too much worry.
But for our age group, this is when we’re supposed to make the most money before things slide backwards, so I see right now as being about as good as it’s gonna get.
Just my 2 yen.
For me “working class” is having a small house, a car (or two) a child and a pet.
That amounts to a household income of something like 8-16 mil a year in the Tokyo area.
The people who are saying that 5 mil is “middle class” are insane, that’s basically working poor, with both parents working part-time conbini jobs or something
Based on the comments , I guess I’m high class then. Figured 10-15m is middle class.
It depends on where you live. Central Tokyo? 7-8 million is the average salary. Middle class is over 9 to 12. Way out in Nagano, you can live a middle class life on 6.5 to 9. Some places even less if you have generational wealth and can build houses for free.
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There is this nonsense belief among English speaking foreigners that everyone in Japan makes 4.5. I believe it’s s coping mechanism for people stuck in shit jobs without any future. It isn’t true.
I wouldn’t class 4m as middle class. That’s like… No breathing room at all.
I don’t think 5m will raise a family in Tokyo. I’d say 8-10m for a family to comfortably put two kids through schools, sports, activities, medical and dental costs.
If you are in the burbs, live frugally, and the company pays for your commute you might be able to get by with a bit less.
I like the daikon tops.
My wife and I earn 6m collectively.
We have one child and a second on the way.
We can afford to eat/do many things.
However, we choose to live very minimally and only buy high quality products that last a lifetime. Also, most of our furniture is second hand.
5 million to own a home?! If you’re 2+ hours from Tokyo, I think so. But within Tokyo, that’s difficult. We have more than 5 and cannot afford to buy a home, or even rent a bigger place.
you’re either working for the capital or the capital works for you, there’s no “middle”
Are we all using post-tax or pre-tax numbers here? 4-5 million take home is not too bad. Can be lower middle class in many areas.
4 to 5 mil as middle class? Wtf?
The median salary here is roughly 4.6m.
Honestly there’s a lot of factors to consider beyond just salary. 5m in Tokyo vs 5m in middle of nowhere inaka is very different. Married vs single. Married but only one works vs both. Kids, no kids.
I started making close to 10m this year while living in an area of Chiba that is currently gaining in popularity and has a lot of ongoing development (see: Massive inflation of prices especially as “rich” people move into the area) and I’m just starting to feel comfortable – no kids, but a wife who isn’t working right now for medical reasons – but I have strong concerns that 10m won’t be enough in the next few years. If the economy ever recovers maybe it won’t be so bad, but I’m not holding my breath.
I guess it also depends on what you consider middle class.
To me middle class has always meant you have enough money to not really stress too much about going out to eat or having to buy a new appliance when it breaks, or being able to go on small-medium trips a couple of times a year, etc.
Basically stable but not fuck you money, or buy a Ferrari level well off, but you also don’t need to check your bank balance every 1-3 times a week.
I started at 3m here, then got to 4m, then 5m, then 6.5m and then finally my current salary. All while living in Chiba, supporting my wife alone.
So I feel like I’ve experienced a good range of different salary brackets.
4m to 5m is not enough.
How much is enough then? Again that depends on your personal situation, but for me personally anything less than 8m was probably too stressful and we’re not exactly big spenders. I feel like I’m barely just now feeling “middle class” right now, and only just – but it’s been less than a year on this salary so I’m still mentally adjusting.
Japanese people hadn’t seen inflation for over 40 years. Only deflation. I suspect many are having a hard time adjusting.
As an American I always thought Japan was super expensive based on popular media depiction, but this thread makes me realize that it’s really not that bad there relatively speaking.
And here’s my Japanese parter asking me to move there with her while I’m getting a good salary here. No thanks.