This is so insignificant and boring topic. I’m glad Japan can’t have the gender pronoun problem because we barely use pronouns when we referencing someone.
Real talk: Bringing up that bad dragon maid translation in a JP paper is a very bad idea if you are *trying* to defend localizers
AI is a bad idea, but seriously
A big problem is that Japanese publishers are often very protective of their mangaka talent and allow no access to them, not even for translators. So translators can’t ask to confirm the intent behind a line and have no choice but to guess their way through ambiguity, which can often lead to mistakes.
US culture wars are the most “first-world” bs ever. I hope Japan dodges it entirely
I wish they included more examples of what these people are complaining about, so I could judge for myself.
It sounds to me like they are just being snowflakes. But I might agree with them if the translators are inserting “political ideology” where there was none in the original work. (“political ideology” in quotes, because I don’t consider sexuality etc. to actually be a political issue. it’s just a fact of nature.)
Translation is a difficult task. Things should be altered to convey the actual tone/intention of the work, but it should also try to represent the original work as accurately as possible. It’s a balance that some people will be better at than others. I think this is an especially difficult task for A.I.
whew I’m glad I wasn’t born an American
“I identify as a cat in early 1900s Japan, my first person pronoun is wagahai”
few
> then just let an unbiased machine do it.”
The absolute number one thing to remember about machine learning is that it REEKS to high hell of human bias. It will take one choice expressed in one paragraph and replicate it everywhere else.
Can we not bring this topic into the sub? Thanks.
Not that big into anime and manga anymore but:
1) Japan is and was more Queer than they realize. Sailor Moon and Card Captor Sakura have unambiguously Queer characters and those are like 40-years old. There are more contemporary anime and manga with LGBTQ characters.
2) As a language teacher, machines can’t tell who’s talking and what the situation is. A translator can. A translator can also make calls when a word or phrase needs extra attention. What do we call “onigiri” if we don’t have the cultural context?
3) As someone who has translated some manga, unofficially, to make each character unique or reflect dialects, accents and so on, it’s vary human job.
Unpopular opinion which I will die defending: English Localisation is worse than just translating.
English localisation is usually just Americanising in speech and in thought, and it does not match the tone or verbiage of what is being said despite the claims of localisers. No one outside of the source language will get your Japanese accent references, so stop with the y’alls and what have you to indicate Kansai etc. Not everyone thinks American and needs its slang to digest Japanese content. Localisation frequently takes me out of media which I am trying to enjoy when I hear liberties taken between spoken language and the English written text. Same for text to text. Polishing translation does not require injecting your local culture which you the localiser relates to.
Do not reply with your “but direct translation not good” because I do not care, this is my unchanging perspective.
The English localization scene is a hellhole of wannabe writers and failed activists cannibalizing media for their own benefit and I look forward to AI translation becoming nuanced enough to put them out in the doghouse.
All according to *keikaku**
* Translator’s note: *keikaku* means ‘plan’
Translation and localization are the same thing. It’s just that idiots on the internet made “localization” a boogieman buzzword to throw at bad translations because they have no idea how translation even works.
Translation will always have a bias. Because language is inherently influenced by the culture of the ones who speak it. It is literally impossible to translate artistic works, which are inherently political, without re-contextualizing it into the target language’s cultural understandings.
It’s like how NASA releases those photos from the James Webb telescope. The original images that the JW sends over are taken in light bandwidths that the human eye cannot see. Without editing and color correction, the images would just be various shades of red due to redshift. But with color correction (image translation) the image can now be seen as if a human was standing right where the subject of the photo exists. Yes, the image is edited and is not the pure original. But what NASA releases as the end product is what the subject of the image ACTUALLY looks like if you were there.
That is what proper translation is. You are correcting and adjusting the surface level so that the target audience can understand the true intent that lies underneath. Without those changes, the target audience will just be reading a meaningless string of words that they have no understanding of.
If you really care about the sanctity of the original work, learn Japanese and shut up.
>Within the localization process, writers sometimes take liberties with the prose and dialogue so that the final product **will be better received by the intended audience**
“Oh, those pesky patriarchal societal demands”
Morons translating for a bunch of morons it seems
Hi from Nikkei Asia — thanks for sharing and discussing this article.
Targeting translators isn’t new.
It’s been going on for years.
And let’s be clear – for anyone that understands Japanese most translations are basically creative writing assignments because Japanese and English are just very different languages so it’s often the translators opinion on the nuance of a word. English is very verbose. Japanese is often very terse.
I’ve often thought one nice thing they could do (which no one will because it costs extra money) is offering a literal translation. Because translators often are translating the nuance, in English unless you’re listening for it specifically you’re probably not going to notice the same word getting used for multiple things. That way if someone thinks the translation is just “too woke”, just stick to literals. Do it long enough with the literals and eventually you can figure out the nuance on your own too.
I think the author must have meant to write, “US culture warriors masquerading as translators are finally being unmasked.”
Thank God I’m not American lol
Can translation be considered as a culture appropriation?
The rest of the world has woken up to the US’ woke mind virus.
What’s happening there is inevitable when you have people spending $200k for a gender study degree. Anyone who load themselves with such debt at a young age will experience tremendous mental pressure, lo and behold, they mutilate their bodies with transgenderism.
does anyone know where to order tokkofuku clothes without any prints? https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/11n5p7h/does_anyone_know_where_to_order_tokkofuku_clothes/
Japanese intimacy coordinator making film sex scenes sexy and safe https://japantoday.com/category/entertainment/feature-japanese-intimacy-coordinator-making-sex-scenes-sexy-and-safe
21 comments
This is so insignificant and boring topic. I’m glad Japan can’t have the gender pronoun problem because we barely use pronouns when we referencing someone.
Real talk: Bringing up that bad dragon maid translation in a JP paper is a very bad idea if you are *trying* to defend localizers
AI is a bad idea, but seriously
A big problem is that Japanese publishers are often very protective of their mangaka talent and allow no access to them, not even for translators. So translators can’t ask to confirm the intent behind a line and have no choice but to guess their way through ambiguity, which can often lead to mistakes.
US culture wars are the most “first-world” bs ever. I hope Japan dodges it entirely
I wish they included more examples of what these people are complaining about, so I could judge for myself.
It sounds to me like they are just being snowflakes. But I might agree with them if the translators are inserting “political ideology” where there was none in the original work. (“political ideology” in quotes, because I don’t consider sexuality etc. to actually be a political issue. it’s just a fact of nature.)
Translation is a difficult task. Things should be altered to convey the actual tone/intention of the work, but it should also try to represent the original work as accurately as possible. It’s a balance that some people will be better at than others. I think this is an especially difficult task for A.I.
whew I’m glad I wasn’t born an American
“I identify as a cat in early 1900s Japan, my first person pronoun is wagahai”
few
> then just let an unbiased machine do it.”
The absolute number one thing to remember about machine learning is that it REEKS to high hell of human bias. It will take one choice expressed in one paragraph and replicate it everywhere else.
Can we not bring this topic into the sub? Thanks.
Not that big into anime and manga anymore but:
1) Japan is and was more Queer than they realize. Sailor Moon and Card Captor Sakura have unambiguously Queer characters and those are like 40-years old. There are more contemporary anime and manga with LGBTQ characters.
2) As a language teacher, machines can’t tell who’s talking and what the situation is. A translator can. A translator can also make calls when a word or phrase needs extra attention. What do we call “onigiri” if we don’t have the cultural context?
3) As someone who has translated some manga, unofficially, to make each character unique or reflect dialects, accents and so on, it’s vary human job.
Unpopular opinion which I will die defending: English Localisation is worse than just translating.
English localisation is usually just Americanising in speech and in thought, and it does not match the tone or verbiage of what is being said despite the claims of localisers. No one outside of the source language will get your Japanese accent references, so stop with the y’alls and what have you to indicate Kansai etc. Not everyone thinks American and needs its slang to digest Japanese content. Localisation frequently takes me out of media which I am trying to enjoy when I hear liberties taken between spoken language and the English written text. Same for text to text. Polishing translation does not require injecting your local culture which you the localiser relates to.
Do not reply with your “but direct translation not good” because I do not care, this is my unchanging perspective.
The English localization scene is a hellhole of wannabe writers and failed activists cannibalizing media for their own benefit and I look forward to AI translation becoming nuanced enough to put them out in the doghouse.
All according to *keikaku**
* Translator’s note: *keikaku* means ‘plan’
Translation and localization are the same thing. It’s just that idiots on the internet made “localization” a boogieman buzzword to throw at bad translations because they have no idea how translation even works.
Translation will always have a bias. Because language is inherently influenced by the culture of the ones who speak it. It is literally impossible to translate artistic works, which are inherently political, without re-contextualizing it into the target language’s cultural understandings.
It’s like how NASA releases those photos from the James Webb telescope. The original images that the JW sends over are taken in light bandwidths that the human eye cannot see. Without editing and color correction, the images would just be various shades of red due to redshift. But with color correction (image translation) the image can now be seen as if a human was standing right where the subject of the photo exists. Yes, the image is edited and is not the pure original. But what NASA releases as the end product is what the subject of the image ACTUALLY looks like if you were there.
That is what proper translation is. You are correcting and adjusting the surface level so that the target audience can understand the true intent that lies underneath. Without those changes, the target audience will just be reading a meaningless string of words that they have no understanding of.
If you really care about the sanctity of the original work, learn Japanese and shut up.
>Within the localization process, writers sometimes take liberties with the prose and dialogue so that the final product **will be better received by the intended audience**
“Oh, those pesky patriarchal societal demands”
Morons translating for a bunch of morons it seems
Hi from Nikkei Asia — thanks for sharing and discussing this article.
Targeting translators isn’t new.
It’s been going on for years.
And let’s be clear – for anyone that understands Japanese most translations are basically creative writing assignments because Japanese and English are just very different languages so it’s often the translators opinion on the nuance of a word. English is very verbose. Japanese is often very terse.
I’ve often thought one nice thing they could do (which no one will because it costs extra money) is offering a literal translation. Because translators often are translating the nuance, in English unless you’re listening for it specifically you’re probably not going to notice the same word getting used for multiple things. That way if someone thinks the translation is just “too woke”, just stick to literals. Do it long enough with the literals and eventually you can figure out the nuance on your own too.
I think the author must have meant to write, “US culture warriors masquerading as translators are finally being unmasked.”
Thank God I’m not American lol
Can translation be considered as a culture appropriation?
The rest of the world has woken up to the US’ woke mind virus.
What’s happening there is inevitable when you have people spending $200k for a gender study degree. Anyone who load themselves with such debt at a young age will experience tremendous mental pressure, lo and behold, they mutilate their bodies with transgenderism.