Edit: Thanks for all your responses. I now understand that it is not actually illegal to ask me this. As stated originally, I am refusing regardless, but I thought that if I had a law to quote then maybe they would leave it at that. I can’t give too much context on my situation because I know of at least one more person that browses this website from my job, but here’s some extra info: needless to say I will be discussing this with my psychologist and letting him know how I feel about the whole thing. Thing is, the next appointment is not until a long while, and the director even had the gall to suggest that I should call the doc and ask him if he could speed my meeting up (lol, how about no). Again, I will be refusing, just wanted a reason stronger and easier for them to accept other than “I don’t like it” because I won’t be meeting the doc for a while. Thanks again!
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TL;DR: Is this illegal? If so, what specific law can I quote?
This was triggered by me handling them a 診断書 to them, telling them my psychologist recommended me a few weeks rest, and then, if possible, to work from home in the meantime. My job is completely doable from home, and it has been done before during the covid emergencies. Regardless, they’re going with a bullshit excuse and trying to deny me remote work. That’s just how it is sometimes. So, then they offered me a couple of months off instead, which I took because it’s better than nothing. So far so normal.
The thing is that one of the directors has requested me to arrange a meeting between him and my psychologist, not once, but three times now. This was done on the bullshit grounds of: “We just want to find the best way to help you and it’s better if I talk to him directly to completely understand.” At first, I deflected and told him he was too busy, and I didn’t think it was going to be possible to arrange it, but now it’s the third time he insists and it’s seriously pissing me off.
I am going to refuse regardless, but I’m trying to do it in the most diplomatic way possible without making it too personal. I have a huge suspicion this is illegal, it IS illegal in my country, but I’m not sure if it’s ACTUALLY illegal here or not.
The story I want to go with is that my psychologist refused the meeting due to conflicts with \*insert the corresponding law here\*.
In this way, I’m letting them know it’s illegal, while not making it a threat or anything like that. “Oh, sorry, seems like it’s not possible, bummer.”
Well, the question is: is it actually illegal? If so, what law can I cite and where can I find it?
Many thanks in advance.
26 comments
Japanese are masters of passive-aggressive pressure. Just ask your psychologist if it’s ethical and tell them you feel very uncomfortable with it. Get them to write a note recommending against your boss’ request or an explanation why it’s illegal, if so.
I can’t really say anything about the legality of it, but if you have a good relationship with your pshychiatrist and trust him, it could be a good thing since he could back you up and push for things which are good for you? Corporate might feel a bit assured if they hear it directly from a medical professional and not from you. A good doctor would also not discuss or divulge any details in regards to your diagnosis that you have not approved and if you are present there then you know what he says as well.
Patient-doctor confidentiality exists. Without your explicit permission, they are not allowed to share any of your detailed information to anyone – including your employer.
[https://www.kokusen.go.jp/e-hello/judgments/data/201404_1.html](https://www.kokusen.go.jp/e-hello/judgments/data/201404_1.html)
Don’t know the legality, but a friend was having issues with her body swelling and severe pain. She couldn’t stand for long periods, etc. They made the HR lady go to an appointment with her. She naively thought it was because her Japanese wasn’t great and they were being nice. They thought she was faking it.
It’s completely possible this is passive aggressive stuff, but there’s a separate possibility to consider: **The company is trying to follow the law.**
Basically, your employer can have you meet with a doctor (specifically a 産業医) to work out the precise conditions of accommodations you need. In general, that’s not your doctor but rather a doctor they pay for the consulting.
That sounds so ridiculous and unacceptable, yet such a “Japanese work culture” type of thing.
Perhaps you can talk to your psychologist about this. Mention how you feel.
It would be better if the refusal came from them rather than you trying to make an excuse.
Maybe you should ask this question to your psychologist? He/she will probably know the best course of action in this situation.
How well do you trust your HR? Have you contacted them to get their advice?
TBH, yeah it’s probably illegal (and maybe immoral) for them to ask you to do it.
HOWEVER, it might just be better to accept and have your psychologist explain the situation directly to the company director.
It would save a lot of hassle
Not illegal but requires your consent.
Japan has a different approach to sharing medical information than many foreign countries.It’s not unusual for an employer to take an interest in the health of their employees by speaking to an employee’s doctor, or arranging a consultation with a company doctor who would also communicate with your personal doctor. The purpose is accommodate the employee’s medical needs, if any, in the workplace.
Of course, you have the right to refuse and your information is confidential but you might want to reconsider. Discuss it with your doctor first. Your doctor will only share what you agree to share.
NB – I know this because I was in a similar situation and as a union member was able to get reliable and free advice from a labour lawyer.
Why does this post assume malice? I had a coworker that got sick and missed a lot of work, but wouldn’t go to a doctor or document anything.
When the boss finally said “documentation or we let you go” she went and got a statement of her condition from her doc, which the company then used to help put her on medical leave where she was paid to recover at home.
If you have special needs, how have these needs been communicated? I hope it wasn’t just a “trust me, bro” conversation.
Have you actually discussed the request with your psychologist?
May I ask, is the psychological issue that you are dealing with at least in part due to your work? Article 19 of the Labor Standards Act gives you protection if it is a work related mental health issue.
They have no right to access your medical information. You can either:
1) Decline and tell them your doctor is uncomfortable with speaking with them.
2) Decline and tell them you’re willing to talk to a doctor their hire 😬
3) Accept and let them speak with the doctor.
For ① you could have your doctor write a letter addressing any concerns they may have as a way to meet in the middle. For ② you could have a lawyer or labor representative present as a way to meet in the middle. For ③ you could request to be present when they speak to your doctor face-to-face and request that they never speak in private or that this is just a one-time thing.
Hells no! Japanese employers are always trying to pull this shit, but you do have the right to patient confidentiality. As far as I know anyone can go with you with your consent, but you have the right to deny anyone going with you.
I had a Japanese employer try the same thing with me. First my supervisor tried to BS me by saying he just wanted to help with the language, and I said I was fine and didn’t need help. Then he said almost the same exact thing yours said – almost the same exact words – and I told him that my doctor had written in his letter exactly what I needed, so there was nothing further to ask. He still pushed, so I said that I had called Labor Standards and they told me my employer didn’t need to go to doctor appointments with me, that my doctor’s letters should suffice. He stopped annoying me after that.
Citing some sort of law won’t help you if you can’t say no to begin with.
Just say no. No reasons no apologies just no
Quoting the law is beyond the point. This is not acceptable and wouldn’t be legal if you were coerced/forced.
In fact, if your manager is persistently asking in writing, I am fairly certain you have a workplace harassment case.
>Company director insisting on going to my psychologist appointment together
Is not necessarily the same as
>The thing is that one of the directors has requested me to arrange a meeting between him and my psychologist, not once, but three times now.
Okay there is a fine point here. Are they insisting as you say, or, are they asking if they can.
1. is illegal for reasons other have mentioned
2. is absolutely not illegal because you have the right to refuse it
Just asking “hey I’d like to visit your psychologist with you to get a better understanding” is perfectly legal, my boss asked to talk with one of my doctors while I was in the hospital to see how seriously I was injured and I had no problem with it – but – I could have refused. “You will take me with you to meet with your psychologist” on the other hand isn’t.
Context my friend, context.
An example would be the oft asked “can the police ask me to XYZ”. Since it came up recently lets use let them search my bag.
Yes they absolutely can, and, you can absolutely say no. But they rely on social pressure to get you to comply. And your not complying will result in them wasting a good big of your time trying to pressure you into complying. But legally they cannot force you to let them search your belongings without a warrant or arresting you. You have to give them permission.
Anyone can ask you anything at any time legally. The restaurant you’re visiting can ask you for your passport/zaiyru card. Can they compel you to show it? No. Could you win a civil judgement against them if they refused you service because of it? Almost certainly (another one of those things people get confused with is the difference between civil and criminal law).
See the difference?
Now in this case, since the director has taken such an interest, it is probably going to have negative consequences to you if you refuse. I still suggest refusing in the nicest way possible (like getting your psychologist to write a note saying they’re not comfortable sharing information with others about your wellbeing) but just be aware.
Never ever ever let on to a Japanese company that you have any kind of mental health issue. Ever.
Yo
Not illegal, and they have the right to ask BUT it has to be under your consent. You have the right to say No, even without legal grounds, a simple reason such as you are not comfortable with it and you want to keep everything as patient-doctor confidentiality. I did this in my last kyuushoku, many times. Company asked me several times but I will just see it as “formality” to ask me, I know they cannot force it.
Also if you feel pressured with this situation, you can consult this with your psychologist who issued the shindansho, if they’re cooperative they might even issue additional letter that forbids this kind of pressure from company to you, without mentioning that it was under your request.
> At first, I deflected and told him he was too busy, and I didn’t think it was going to be possible to arrange it
Imo your mistake was lying about it so obviously, that might be why they’re so persistent. I’d just ask the psychologist to give some sort of proof that they did give you that suggestion. Your psychologist won’t say anything anyway about your condition, that really would be illegal.
You can refuse that request. There’s no need for any in your company to know any details you don’t want to share. And if you’re going to the psychologist because you have issues at work, I think that giving them more information would be actually counterproductive.
My psychiatrist told me that whatever I discussed with him would be kept strictly between us. If any of my superiors asked me about going with me to my appointment, I would firmly refuse.
While not medical, I had a similar issue in a company in the past. I needed to do some immigration paperwork needed for work, and the HR lady insisted to go with me. At that time I didn’t really think anything of it, but later I found out that it was because they were actually thinking that I wanted to take half day off with no reason (yeah, super red flag, now I know better). The fun thing is that said lady had to experience first hand what it’s like to be in Shinagawa immigration office, including waiting. They didn’t say anything again regarding immigration (I don’t work there anymore).
Well…shit.
Hi u/mamasteakmilk; I’ve been in a very similar position to yours, only my boss didn’t want to meet the psychologist; she just blindsided me in our daily (!) 1-on-1 by asking what the psychologist and I were talking about during our sessions. I was able to obfuscate on the spot, but, like you, I couldn’t imagine that such sessions were anything but 100% confidential, so I wasn’t expecting her to ask about something so private.
I got the same *shindansho* that you got, but the HR manager who handles those things happened to be the very manager I was working under, and the *cause* of my mental problems, so I was pressured into keeping the report to myself.
At least you’re getting some time off to mentally regroup and not have to think about your troubles every day. Also, take heart in knowing that you’re not alone. Lots and lots of workers are in situations like yours (me too), and lots of workers have their problems compounded by meddling managers who — always looking to put the company’s interests first — will throw you and your mental health under the bus to save themselves.
Don’t let your boss join. The boss will only use the knowledge gained in the meetings against you, and might even tell the psychologist that you’re fabricating or “misunderstanding” things. Let those meeting stay private!
Ask your **psychologist** to tell your boss that it is private and all they can say is it is best you take some time off as a remote worker. Ask your **psychologist** to practice with you on what the **psychologist** will say to your boss. Make sure to tell the **psychologist** that you dont want even a tiny bit of what is going on with you to be discussed.