I know it’s offensive but I don’t understand why. Its’ written with 貴 (precious) and 様. Shouldn’t it be an highly respectable way of addressing someone?
I think about it the same way as using overly polite words to adress someone with lots of sarcasm. Like saying ” Oh i’m sorry MISTER ” it can sound pretty mean if you say it like that.
From what i understand tho 貴様 has completely lost any polite meaning it may have had in the past.
That’s just my understanding of the word, i could be wrong but if someone knows if i’m onto something or talking outta my ass please tell me.
I vaguely remember reading an article about it. 貴様 probably used to be reserved only for the highest status people, but then some folks started to use it ironically, thus over time it became an insult.
It’s used sarcastically. You know what sarcasm is right? Japanese use sarcasm just like any other language. It’s like calling a spoiled brat girl “princess” while sneering, or something like that.
>Its’ written with 貴 (precious) and 様. Shouldn’t it be an highly respectable way of addressing someone?
One reason why people keep telling beginners to learn full words is because many words aren’t taken for their individual kanji meanings, at least not in modern times.
There’s a few words that work like that in Japanese, they’ve become offensive through sarcasm ; お前 used to be honorific iirc
Shouldn’t the word “awful” be a really strong compliment? It’s literally full of awe, or awe-inspiring. Why would being awe-inspiring be bad?
Some people (myself included) find etymology a really helpful way to make words more memorable and think it’s interesting in its own right, but words mean what they mean, not what they historically did or “should” mean.
maybe it sounds like you call someone the Mister Tree
The whole gamut of common second person pronouns sound respectful
あなた = ‘that direction’ (indirectness is polite)
君 = ‘lord’
お前 = ‘your honoured presence’
But thanks to being used a lot and worn down, none of them are
貴様 meant “your honour” up until WW2 and was even used in military songs like 貴様と俺. After the war the armed forces fell into disrepute and the term became sarcastic. It’s not really used anymore today but Ishihara infamously used it to insult journalists some years ago.
from what I’ve gathered from other comments here it seems like hey buddying someone
貴様、お前、貴方 (yes, written in kanji) and a lot of other pronouns and ways of addressing people used to be highly (keigo-level) respectful in the past. If you take a look at older (even early 20th century) literature, you will find them.
But like in other languages forms of respect can be distorted into insults if the lower party (the one showing respect) is forced to use them.
Daily thread
[deleted]
A possible explanation is that “kisama” was used by samurai to refer respectfully to their superiors and daimyos. But during the Meiji era, the daimyos were stripped of hereditary titles and lands by the central government and stopped paying their debts to the samurai, who started to decline into poverty. So logically, samurai turned around and transformed “kisama” into an insult, alluding to the treacherous fallen lords who had failed them.
(PS: But take this explanation with a grain of salt, as is based in my reading of Wikipedia articles.)
It was respectful but at some point sarcasm joined the chat and we arrived where we are.
[deleted]
This is covered well by everyone else but just wanted to leave this explanation.
It’s kind of like saying “Well, excuse me, your highness”.
It uses the word high and refers to royalty so it should indicate a high status but doesn’t in this usage.
Words change in meaning. When michael Jackson sung “bad” he actually meant really good. Same with kisama. It changed.
This is actually super interesting!
#Usage dictates meaning.
Fin.
Think of the “princess” in Link’s “Excuse me princess” in the Zelda cartoon 🙂
First, trying to make Kanji mean something is a fool’s game. The Polite number 18 (which is a pun on the reading of the characters to make something that reads box, which also has nothing to do with what the word means anyway) The Large Buddhist Monk’s Garment. お十八番, 大袈裟. Neither of these common words mean anything
Second:
Yes, your highness. As you wish. We certainly do not want to make you have any discomfort in your life.
Did you feel like I being polite?
“Lady” is a term of respect and yet if you tell a woman “lady, you can’t park your car here” you are being the opposite of respectful. This is similar (though further along because the original sense is pretty much completely lost, while “lady” is still a nice thing to call someone in many contexts).
Idk why I’m bothering to comment this but the take they were calling bad was responding to a question about the origins of a word by saying “words mean what they mean” They could’ve been nicer about it but idk kinda interesting a bunch of people have replied thinking they were referring to the words don’t mean what they historically mean part.
Kisama(貴様) is offensive, and Kiden(貴殿) is very respectful. I don’t know why.
28 comments
[deleted]
I think about it the same way as using overly polite words to adress someone with lots of sarcasm. Like saying ” Oh i’m sorry MISTER ” it can sound pretty mean if you say it like that.
From what i understand tho 貴様 has completely lost any polite meaning it may have had in the past.
That’s just my understanding of the word, i could be wrong but if someone knows if i’m onto something or talking outta my ass please tell me.
Apparently the word [used to be respectful](https://linguaholic.com/linguablog/kisama-meaning-japanese/), and is now not at all.
I vaguely remember reading an article about it. 貴様 probably used to be reserved only for the highest status people, but then some folks started to use it ironically, thus over time it became an insult.
It’s used sarcastically. You know what sarcasm is right? Japanese use sarcasm just like any other language. It’s like calling a spoiled brat girl “princess” while sneering, or something like that.
>Its’ written with 貴 (precious) and 様. Shouldn’t it be an highly respectable way of addressing someone?
One reason why people keep telling beginners to learn full words is because many words aren’t taken for their individual kanji meanings, at least not in modern times.
There’s a few words that work like that in Japanese, they’ve become offensive through sarcasm ; お前 used to be honorific iirc
Shouldn’t the word “awful” be a really strong compliment? It’s literally full of awe, or awe-inspiring. Why would being awe-inspiring be bad?
Some people (myself included) find etymology a really helpful way to make words more memorable and think it’s interesting in its own right, but words mean what they mean, not what they historically did or “should” mean.
maybe it sounds like you call someone the Mister Tree
The whole gamut of common second person pronouns sound respectful
あなた = ‘that direction’ (indirectness is polite)
君 = ‘lord’
お前 = ‘your honoured presence’
But thanks to being used a lot and worn down, none of them are
貴様 meant “your honour” up until WW2 and was even used in military songs like 貴様と俺. After the war the armed forces fell into disrepute and the term became sarcastic. It’s not really used anymore today but Ishihara infamously used it to insult journalists some years ago.
https://sp.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22276737
from what I’ve gathered from other comments here it seems like hey buddying someone
貴様、お前、貴方 (yes, written in kanji) and a lot of other pronouns and ways of addressing people used to be highly (keigo-level) respectful in the past. If you take a look at older (even early 20th century) literature, you will find them.
But like in other languages forms of respect can be distorted into insults if the lower party (the one showing respect) is forced to use them.
Daily thread
[deleted]
A possible explanation is that “kisama” was used by samurai to refer respectfully to their superiors and daimyos. But during the Meiji era, the daimyos were stripped of hereditary titles and lands by the central government and stopped paying their debts to the samurai, who started to decline into poverty. So logically, samurai turned around and transformed “kisama” into an insult, alluding to the treacherous fallen lords who had failed them.
(PS: But take this explanation with a grain of salt, as is based in my reading of Wikipedia articles.)
It was respectful but at some point sarcasm joined the chat and we arrived where we are.
[deleted]
This is covered well by everyone else but just wanted to leave this explanation.
It’s kind of like saying “Well, excuse me, your highness”.
It uses the word high and refers to royalty so it should indicate a high status but doesn’t in this usage.
Words change in meaning. When michael Jackson sung “bad” he actually meant really good. Same with kisama. It changed.
This is actually super interesting!
#Usage dictates meaning.
Fin.
Think of the “princess” in Link’s “Excuse me princess” in the Zelda cartoon 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzfXxkHrIBM
Karma farming this sub is so fucking easy
First, trying to make Kanji mean something is a fool’s game. The Polite number 18 (which is a pun on the reading of the characters to make something that reads box, which also has nothing to do with what the word means anyway) The Large Buddhist Monk’s Garment. お十八番, 大袈裟. Neither of these common words mean anything
Second:
Yes, your highness. As you wish. We certainly do not want to make you have any discomfort in your life.
Did you feel like I being polite?
“Lady” is a term of respect and yet if you tell a woman “lady, you can’t park your car here” you are being the opposite of respectful. This is similar (though further along because the original sense is pretty much completely lost, while “lady” is still a nice thing to call someone in many contexts).
Idk why I’m bothering to comment this but the take they were calling bad was responding to a question about the origins of a word by saying “words mean what they mean” They could’ve been nicer about it but idk kinda interesting a bunch of people have replied thinking they were referring to the words don’t mean what they historically mean part.
Kisama(貴様) is offensive, and Kiden(貴殿) is very respectful.
I don’t know why.