Assigning clairification to words to reduce confusion (these aren’t their globaly accepted definitions:
Transwoman = assigned male at birth but taken hormones to change body to look more feminine (has breast development)
Pass = is percieved to look female by others
SCNR = scenario
Pre-Op = still has male genitalia
Post-Op = has undergone surgury to change male genitalia
So, I know there’s mostly a consensus of “use a private onsen” if transwomen are asking about using the female baths. But I’m in the process of transitioning and have a disregard for most things except the law, and disrespecting another culture – would it be frowned upon to use the men’s.
(Thai legislation doesn’t allow ID changes)
A bunch of example scenarios:
SCNR 1: Pre-Op Transwoman who doesn’t pass
SCNR 2: Pre-Op Transwoman who passes
SCNR 3: Post-Op Transwoman who doesn’t pass
Q1) At which SCNR if any at all would it be inappropriate for me to use the men’s onsen since legally that’s where I should be anyways – and how may people react?
Q2) Would I get into legal trouble if it came down to that?
Additional notes: this is half hypothetical because I’m interested in the culture, but also I’d feel a bit anxious making other people uncomfortable by being in the woman’s, taking up a slot for a family with only 1 person, and what if I was on a trip with friends and they didn’t have a private one?
Edit: got rid of irrelevant scenario since if a somebody did pass and was post-op the consensus seems to be: “[it’s less trouble to just use the female one or get a private one]”
12 comments
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It would completely depend on the management of the onsen. I think the most general rule would be if she is pre-op, she would have to use the men’s onsen. Post-op would use the woman’s.
If a pre-OP transwoman entered the women’s onsen, the police may be called. If a post-op transwoman entered the men’s onsen, she’d most likely just be told to leave.
plentiful private onsen or the vanishingly rare mixed bathing is the best bet.
Pre-operation: use onsen meant for the sex you were assigned at birth, unless hormone treatments/plastic surgery makes it confusing for the staff/patrons.
Post-operation: use onsen meant for the biological sex you are transfering to.
Confusing pre-op secondary characteristics: use private onsen.
Note: Police will not care much about what MRZ of your travel document states until you are brought in for questioning and this is something you really want to avoid. And in this situation, they will not care about what the ‘administrative truth’ is, but they may charge you with public nuisance or trespassing.
Aye, just a general thanks to everyone who replied, didn’t know how common private ones were and it’s good to know that I wouldn’t be unable to go into one for eternity.
This is based on my experience as an avid public bath rule breaking heavily tattooed woman living in Japan, whose exact body is against the rules in no uncertain terms (often with tacky clipart, and the only part of the sign in english). I’m non-binary, but I am not trans. I’m also a petite person, so especially without my various smoke and mirrors of androgynous clothing, I am clocked as a woman. Most people will not be bothered enough to get their lazy asses out of the water to get someone to deal with you, as long as you’re following all the other rules, and not posing a danger to them. Put your things in the locker/basket, wash your ass, put your hair up, don’t splash around, be quiet, don’t gawk at people. All bets are off when there are children around, though. They’re the staring type, the blurting out questions to their parents type, the gonna-be-problems-if-they-see-yr-dick type, etc etc.
I’m not personally sure which side would be harder to try. There’s a lot of factors. Do you have artificial tits, have you had any feminizing facial surgeries? If so, maybe modestly hiding your bottom bits with that tiny towel on the women’s side would be easier than walking into the men’s side. After all, your shoulders and head are above the water once you’re in. If you’re going to a spot with milky, mineral rich water…it’s really just from the showers to the tub that you need to navigate gracefully. The locker room is quickly solved with a towel wrap.
Either way, best to use the bath in the off hours, like early afternoon or very late at night. Evening and the morning hours before checkout are the busier times. But always ask at the desk to clarify, as places may have different patterns.
And yeah, it’s always best to get a private bath in the room. But those are Fucking Expensive. There are places that have a few private baths that you can rent by the hour, those are a better bet. And keep in mind that, especially if you are there with friends, there are houses that have natural hot springs piped into them, and a lot of people rent them on Airbnb or similar for ¥70000/night for the whole house. Split that a few ways, and it’s not bad at all. They’re usually a bit remote, though, so you’d be taking the train into town and likely having to rent a car, as well.
There are still mixed onsens around, so that may be the simplest if you don’t want the expense of a private. I almost visited one in Aomori (I’m cis female) before I was warned that as a foreigner I may be stared at and find it uncomfortable.
I’m not going to comment on the gender aspect since others seem to have it covered, but I will talk a bit about private onsen, since I think there’s a bit of confusion or vagueness there.
One type of private onsen would be having a private bath in your ryokan’s room. That tends to be a very expensive upgrade, although if you were with a group of friends and one person opted for that, you could all go to their room to share. Those type of in-room onsen tend to fit 3-4 people comfortably as they are meant for families.
Another type of private onsen would be where you either rent a private onsen room in your ryokan, or at a public onsen that also offers private bath options. This is not usually terribly expensive, but is often time-limited, anywhere from 30-120 minutes (depending on the place and price paid). These onsen rooms also usually fit anywhere from 2-6 people and are meant for couples/families/groups of friends. The cost varies a lot. I’ve been to places where it was ~30 USD for an hour. I’ve also been to places where it was ~10 USD for an hour. I’ve also been to ryokan (up in small mountain resort towns) where using the private room was free, they just asked that you limit your time out of courtesy.
So while a public onsen is definitely an awesome experience and I wish you the best in finding a solution for that, doing research on private onsen or ryokan with private onsen options will often yield you cost-effective options. And, often, a private onsen is really nice, serene experience.
I cannot talk on a trans perspective, but I have been to several onsen and ryokan with onsen.
In ryokan lot of time (most of the time) I was the only person in the bath. But in onsen (by that I mean bath house) there was almost always other people. So on the aspect of not attracting attention, for sure using the onsen of the ryokan seems much more interesting.
What I would do is send an message to the place where you want to stay and ask what bath you should use. For example ask before booking and tell them when you get there, so in case someone complain, they know you are there and can say it’s ok. I am not sure of the law regarding indecency and things like that in Japan, but if you are told by the establishment to use a specific bath, I would be surprised if they call the police on you if they told you to use that bath and that you have an e-mail confirming that you can.
out of curiosity (no judgement), what are trans issues like in japan?
Honestly I just avoided going to Onsens until I was post op. Less hassle all around.
Mount View Hakone is a really nice ryokan, with public and private baths. When you check in you pick an hour time slot for your room to utilize the private bath, and it was absolutely wonderful.
with all due respect why try and make everyone uncomfortable at onsen just because you want to try one. just a private one. most people that use onsen just want to relax and enjoy it. i have tattoos and i’m not going to force my way i there and fuck it up for the older people there. was happy with my private onsen.