I’m not too angry about this to be fair, just very, very slightly irritated.
Like when the last banana is a bit too black, that sort of irritated.
My company treat me well overall. Like many Japanese companies half of the employees are of course mindless zombies who stay after work and pretend to be busy until midnight for absolutely no reason and also there is a general, passionate fetish for meetings, but overall everyone is happy and it could be worse.
I officially finish at 18:00 and sometimes stay behind to finish up and go home by 19:00 at the latest. Not once in 3 years have they challenged me leaving ‘early.’
Sometimes meetings just appear in my schedule I need to attend and they run past my time I’m due home. The other day there was one from 18:15 to 19:00. I don’t like to kick up a fuss and I just go along with it, but I thought to myself wow they never ask me if I’m okay with staying late, they just assume I’ll go. That’s actually….a little bit annoying!
When we go on business trips they ask if my wife/kid will be okay etc. so thats nice but being booked in for meetings that sometimes run to as late as 8pm without asking me is very slightly cheeky.
I know I’m being precious but if anyone has a funny comment or can share this experience, let’s talk.
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If you ‘just go along with it’, you’re obviously causing your own situation.
Pretty common I suppose. A lot of companies have みなし残業 in the contract and a meeting an hour or two after your scheduled shift isn’t too radical.
I get leaving on time tho. I always do, but in the back of my mind I just reserve an extra 15-30 minutes just in case I’m asked to do something.
My company never schedules anything beyond official work time. But then there are our customer company who do it to us. (a surprise zoom meeting start from 19:00 like it’s nothing) And we always joke they are black company
In my experience, meetings scheduled after 18:00 are usually very urgent meeting, though.
How many “sometimes” we are talking about here?
I have no problem with late night meetings, I just take time off the next day to balance it out. If I have a 2am meeting (which happens), I don’t work the next morning.
I get paid well and am given freedom to manage my schedule. It works out okay.
In my previous job I had 20h overtime a month included in my contract. I never hit that mark, and didn’t see the point of working overtime I wasn’t getting paid for. Starting half an hour early and staying half an hour late was pretty normal for me but for everyone else, I was doing basically no overtime ever.
As for late meetings, I’d probably go home on time and pretend I didn’t see it. Wait for them to say something. If it’s actually important, sure, I can make an exception. But if it’s just sitting around twiddling your thumbs (like 90% of meetings), no thanks I have a private life to get back to.
Do they have core time at the contract? Current and previous companies have 11am – 5pm core time. Before or after that any meeting is optional or recommended to re schedule. There’s a meeting every Wednesday at 5:30pm that in 2 years I have skipped 😂. (Pretty sure everybody else go but they start working at 11 am and I start 8am)
For people replying asking about assumed over time みなし残業, thank you so much. I apologise as this could be something I overlooked. I absolutely think there could be something in my contract that includes overtime I’m expected to do. I’m not sure but it sounds right.
as a newcomer I get roped into meetings just to sit there and listen just to “get the lay of the land”
they are scheduled to end at 20.30, actually end at 21.30 and still involve a nomikai
8pm is pretty early. I occasionally hold 10pm meeting with US because i will be the one talking.
But if you are not the one presenting then just find some excuse to decline that evening meeting because non productive effort charge is burden to company, or company is too dumb to realize
Refuse or claim overtime pay.
If it a generally white company, it’s usually only if a meeting needs to be scheduled that time for a reason like talking with another region, or that’s the only time one of the bigwigs could make it.
If it’s just random people inviting you to random meetings, let them know that they shouldn’t expect your attendance outside hours.
You have a wife/kid, that’s the perfect excuse.
Just tell them (apologetically) “sorry but I promised my wife I would take little Taro to his twice-weekly advanced tiddliwinks class at that time – is there any info you need for the meeting and could you update me later?”
It sounds pretty normal to me.
If you are an hourly worker you might even be paid extra.
If you are salaried, probably not, and if you are a manager, definitely not – unless it’s after 22:00.
But the point here is that there should be some reason they are having meetings, and they feel dinner value for you to attend.
Right now it’s common for me to have meetings at odd times if I need to deal with people overseas. This isn’t even my company “asking”, it’s just what’s required to get the job done in a global economy.
I worked at one place that would routinely have on site meetings at 22:00 or later, and even that didn’t bother me too much.
What does really bother me, though, is if the company culture is such that you can *never* make plans. I worked at a company in Ningyocho, which shall not be named, where even if I asked my leader for confirmation, like “hey, I have something after work, so I need to leave by 20:00, is that okay?”, And he confirmed it would be fine – we would still get called into a last minute meeting at 7:55 that would last until 23:00. Meanwhile I ended up standing up my friend who was waiting at Tokyo station *again*.
I learned never to make any plans on work days at that company, since even if I checked specifically on that day, it was meaningless (which, honestly is something many Japanese people naturally know not to do…)
Most of the time I don’t really care what time I leave work, but if you are leaving it signing off within an hour if your official end time, your already ahead of the curve.
If you are dealing with customers or offices on a different continent these sorts of late meetings sometimes can’t be helped, but normal office hours for normal office work should be respected as much as possible.
Don’t go along with it if they are normal priority meetings that could easily be held the next day.
I used to work in a company where one of the execs used to go home after midnight everyday. He was a zombie until 18:00 when he perked up so his day started around then. If he was in a meeting it was going to be late.
Another Japanese company was bought out by a European company. They made all the staff go home at 18:00 on Wednesday. Some of the guys looked heartbroken. No time to finish their work and and even if they had a drinking session they’d be smashed at 20:00 and would still get home early.
In my previous company, there was a period where I have a “urgent” meeting 18:00 everyday. My work time finish at 18:00
Long time Salaryman here but worked for foreign entities in Japan as the only non-Japanese! Assuming it’s completely domestic and non-urgent meetings, I would take the person calling the late meetings aside and ask him/her pointedly why the meeting is called outside of core hours and if there really is a good reason for it. If he/she has a good reason, fine, but if not, it can serve as a little wake up call. If the company talks about it, throw in “work-life balance” in there.
In my experience, a lot of Japanese colleagues will appreciate you telling it how it is!
Put them in time out
“Work ends at 18:00. If you need me in a meeting schedule it to end by 18:00.”
I have zero patience for any kind of overtime fuckery, paid or unpaid. They’re paying for my time. I gave them my time. Now it’s time for me to enjoy my time doing whatever the fuck I want.
We have flexible working hours but with a core time, and it’s generally expected to arrange meetings within that core time and avoid them outside of it unless absolutely necessary. Back when the system was a lot less solidified, I’d occasionally get that sort of meeting request. It eventually changed because enough people complained, including me. 50% Japanese 50% international company though.
Tell them we have a saying in my country called フクユ
This is pretty typical at my company but we’re a trading company so the main appeal for our customers to use us is that we are kind of running 24/7.
That being said, if I send a meeting notice to 6 people for an 8am meeting or a 6:30pm meeting or something. I just get people responding that they can’t attend or else they join remotely from home and don’t say much of anything unless called upon.
If it’s an in-person meeting, then for sure, ask the person making the meeting what’s up with the time? Is there going to be a dinner with the customer afterwards? Is the meeting with someone from overseas so you are adjusting for time zones?? Or what?
The nice thing about Japanese culture is they seldom ask WHY? or dive deep into excuses if you say no you can’t attend. You can just say “すいません、他の予定が入ってますので参加出来ません。後で結果教えて下さい” or something like that.
Something else worth noting though is that someone is definitely noticing when you stay/work late. It’s dumb but if you want brownie points… Say yes to a few and no to others.
If you share your Outlook schedules within the company like ours does. Fill it up with all kinds of shit. Even if it’s just self-imposed due dates for projects and include any private plans at night and mark them private. People will glance at your schedule and go ‘damn he’s keeping busy’. When you say no to the late meetings they’ll assume you are busy with something else.
Don’t make it a big deal, just draw a clear line for yourself but do so quietly and with an open mind.
haha I have heard a lot about the fake of Japanese hard work when deliberately extending the working time despite doing nothing and completing 1 task slowly just to appear to be hardworking, really 1 excessive coloring way, The Japanese are really fake.
My Japanese company started scheduling 研修 from 18:00 to 19:00. I send an email to my coworkers saying I’ll catch up on the training later as I have family to attend to. No one complains. Not yet anyway.
It’s a powerful indicator that the company is mired in the old ways and that reflects on their ability to succeed going forwards. IF they can’t manage their time resources properly then how are they managing anything else? I shudder to think what their web page is like.
This is the Japanese corporate culture. You can show your gaijiness and start to bitch about it but I can assure you that they gonna act scared in front of you on the moment and next thing you know, you are at Hello Work in Shinjuku with all the other dancing monkeys begging for a stupid-ass baito where you gonna teach English to retarded toddlers dressed like a dinosaur. So suck it up. Act super bored during the meetings and point out the stupid things your coworkers say (not the managers) and make sarcasm about it.
They gonna get tired of you and leave you in peace.
Are you getting paid for the extra time?
Block for your “go home” time and the time to commute. It won’t stop urgent meetings, but it may dissuade some people or create more opportunities to push back.
I make sure to have blockers in my calendar for lunch and evenings when I have plans to passively communicate my no-go times.
‘very slightly cheeky’ = ‘absolutely fuming’
A general, passionate fetish for meetings…
Lol
Seems like you’re part of a company that loves meetings just as much as they love their morning coffee. You know, the “Let’s schedule a meeting to discuss the next meeting” kind of place!
Not being precious at all. Stand up for yourself, it’s just work.
I kind of lucked out with a department in a company that never ever expects overtime. I think in the five years I’ve been here, I’ve worked overtime twice, and only for 30-45 mins for one rare super specific meeting. I’d be pretty upset about having late meetings cheekily scheduled for me, but I understand that my situation isn’t the norm.
So, we have a new member in the ‘Black Company Club’! Welcome!
Was the meeting urgent? Because that sometimes happens inevitably and everyone has to just deal with it (chances are even the person who called it isn’t happy about it either). If not, then make a point that while you don’t mind it *occasionally*, to give you notice as basic professional courtesy, as you and your family may already have evening plans scheduled that cannot simply be cancelled at short notice.
I work mostly remote and occasionally go into the office for lunch with the boss and 1 or 2 colleagues. However, once I go to the office I know I’m trapped in there until the boss leaves at like 9-10pm. I think of this as payment for the nice lunch so it’s whatever.
Luckily my company isn’t considered black, so they don’t do it on purpose. Keyword being “on purpose”. Whenever I see a meeting scheduled at the end of the day (like 10 mins before work ends), I message my wife and tell her I’ll be late. Unfortunately, I have yet to be wrong in my assumption that every single meeting is always going to go over time. It’s usually because of one boss who likes to explain everything WAAAAY more than necessary, but the general pace of meetings is just abysmal.